RDM's Vercure should be removed or heavily nerfed

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Then don't apply your groups philosophy as the bottom line for why X or Y should be changed. How you feel about it is not how the state of the game actually is. Objectively, if you're absolutely focused on progression and world/server firsts whatever, RDM is mandatory. If not, RDM is not mandatory. RDM is not going to be the difference between whether or not you'll get loot for a week, discipline and awareness of mechanics is. If your group simply can't get the mechanics right, you're not going to succeed, Verraise spamming or not. Video guides make it very obvious when healers need to heal which is in pretty much two situations, tank busters and raidwide damage. And while non optimal DPS isn't really going to matter on O1S or O2s it's much tighter on O3S and O4S, just being alive to see a mechanic isn't going to help much, actively performing your rotation and doing the mechanic is far more important. RDM is not some god wizard that guarantees raid success and by success I mean a clean clear, not forcing through mechanics with Brink of Death all the time just to see what enrage looks like.

[aleph_null]

The difference rdm can make is the shorter progression duration. You can take 5 lockouts to barely clear with 10 deaths or 8 lockouts to perfect your mechanic execution and clear with 0 deaths. That's why I think verraise makes way bigger impact than whatever any other job could bring to the table. It just gives you a lot more room for errors in mechanic execution, and combined with the encounter mechanics design and change to weakness, those allowed people to clear floors without having a clean run. I've seen so many dirty pulls that ended up as a clear which was only possible due to bringing rdm instead of the other casters. Even for casual groups rdm isn't mandatory but it offers much more than the other caster counterparts (or even any other dps for that matter) during progression, and that, imo is bad for balance. I think you're underestimating the number of clears that resulted from bad pulls. The only fights that have tight enough enrage timer to prevent people from clearing with many deaths are exdeath and neo exdeath during the first week in i320 gear, and there are a lot less punishing mechanics that will be guaranteed to fail if you have deaths/weakness debuffs, compared to midas/gordias tier.

I'm not forcing my group philosophy or whatever it is to ask for a job to be nerfed. I'm giving factual examples that show how much a job can bring to the table during progression, compared to other jobs in the same role category. Whether or not that warrants a nerf to the job, a buff to other jobs, or anything else, is up to the developers.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

You're giving me anecdotes and saying RDM is the problem when it sounds like encounter tuning and ineptness at mechanics are the problems. Anecdotes are not fact. And I'm quite certain you're making an illusory correlation with dirty pulls and RDM. At least half of those raises are going to be from healers (They should be anyway, it's their job) Verraise is an emergency tool, using it 4 times in a row ends your DPS and in most situatins won't save the run either, nor were you able to improve your mechanics since you were too focused for 8 GCDs on Vercuring->Verraising.

[aleph_null]

Yeah, failing to execute mechanics is the source of the problem, and rdm is the only dps job that can save/carry/support groups during pulls that are otherwise impossible to save if you brought a different caster. You can blame how they nerfed the weakness debuff or how the encounter mechanics aren't punishing enough that groups with 10+ deaths are still able to carry on and clear or reach enrage, but that doesn't change the fact that rdm is able to support groups better in those cases. Even angered's healers agreed that leaving raise duty to rdm allowed them to focus on healing and manage to recover as a group (you can check the reddit post I linked a few pages ago).

The ability to recover is very valuable during progression since you can save more runs instead of wiping. You can spend much less time before clearing since you can just brute force through the failures instead of having to wait until you've practiced enough to execute the mechanics perfectly. In the context of o1-4s raids, rdm's ability to help a group recover is immensely better than that of blm/smn. Feel free to say that it's an issue with encounter dps check or mechanics tuning, but that doesn't change how rdm's ability to help the group recover is immensely better than that of blm/smn. You don't even have to actually do many back to back raises, using verraise as rdm lets the healers conserve their mp and it doesn't impact your rotation too much. You can do jolt/proc > verraise, so it's essentially trading a verstone/verfire. Letting healers keep their swiftcast for some emergency healing also has some value.

If you think what I'm saying is just an illusory correlation, go to fflogs and check the worst groups in static execution ranking, see how the majority of the dirtiest pulls have rdm (who happen to do a lot of the raises). There are probably not even 10% among the lowest 30-ish that don't have rdm in the group.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Angered as I said before, is a cutting edge raiding team. Their situation does not apply here. I've already read the reddit post. Verraise isn't going to be touched and doesn't need to be touched. I'm finished arguing with you since you keep saying vacuous truths. Of course, comparatively, RDM is going to have better recovery/support than BLM and SMN, BLM and SMN are not designed with the idea of having restorative magic, that's not their flavor. Verraise is fine and doesn't need to be touched. Being able to just muscle through the death penalty is something the average group cannot do, with 3+ deaths it's more than likely a wipe anyway, stop arguing to apply niche situations to the majority of the playerbase.

[aleph_null]

Well, as I've said multiple times, I think rdm's recovery ability is way too powerful compared to any other job in the game, and you don't have to be a world class raider to exploit it. Imo that's bad for the job balance in the game when a job is objectively superior for progression compared to other jobs by a huge margin, but if you think it's fine then feel free to keep your opinion. I'm just trying to raise my opinion on this topic, and it's up to the devs to adjust or leave things as they are. I also disagree with your claim of how niche this situation is, since having rdm would make progression easier even for casual groups, so I still think that the devs should look at verraise/dualcast and its opportunity costs. Even the most casual group would benefit from being allowed to make more mistakes and still recover.

Anyway thanks for the discussion, I appreciate your opinion on this matter.

[TelosNox]

SMN still can raise. SMN still can raise instant once every minute. SMN still has more capability to manage mana than RDM does.
If you have more than 3 ppl dying every minute then you should work on learning the current mechanics and not progress further just because there is a RDM that can raise so many ppl.

RDM has limited mana. 4 Raises and the RDM is standing there doing nothing. Some ppl here talk like RDM is the unlimited instant Raise machine. That's not true!

Yes a RDM can save the day (just both healers dead for example) in specific situations. But if that situations do not happen, it is definitely worse than BLM and I expect worse than SMN as well.

[Maero]

I have to agree there, most if not all fights i do with pugs i always end up having to raise players to prevent wipes and sometimes it is 4 or so players.
Having some sort of mana regen would be nice but i am sure arguements would be made that RM is already OP, bleh bleh.
It's just sad that now Red Mage is on the scene groups assume we should take on the role as back up healer and some healers take advantage and get lazy

[Remedi]

as I said, if this belief persists they might just make so that weakness is -50% main stat by default and/or increasing verraise cost.

[MaikoRaines]

Verraise is an emergency tool, using it 4 times in a row ends your DPS and in most situatins won't save the run either, nor were you able to improve your mechanics since you were too focused for 8 GCDs on Vercuring->Verraising.

I agree with this 100% - when I was answering the DPS weeb who was insisting that Verraise and Vercure should of been removed and a buff should be given, this is exactly what I had in mind and set my example to a perfect tee. If you need to burn your mana on either of these in the majority of the fight, the problem is with the healers not being able to keep mana going for several reasons (multiple KO's, overspamming heals etc) Verraise and Vercure should only be used in situations. Example for us is savage runs - I can easily flip a raise as an RDM to someone who drops to save healers the time to just focus on the remaining people alive and then easily flip back to my DPS rotation at the flick of a wrist.

Verraise has saved many healers asses many times.