RDM's Vercure should be removed or heavily nerfed

[Kabooa]

Then the issue isn't with RDM it's with people that need to think outside the top tier meta box because that's not the speed they're at.

Well, that's an entire topic on its own.

Red Mage is an issue, because Red Mage (And Samurai/Monk/Black Mage) are highlighting a concern that has to be dealt with earlier than not, and that's the binary view of what belongs where at what point in progression.

I fully expect that when the next DPS jobs come out, that suddenly Samurai gets 'Utility' and we get the new 'Viking' as your pure selfish DPS, etc etc.

This is a lazy way of getting the Solo Carry players to your new class rather than giving it a different facet of the same game. This game's party size is too small to have the 'Support Tax' applied to one of the DPS roles.

Black Mage, Red, Summoner, Blue Mage, and anything else that falls into the 'Caster DPS' Role should not only be doing comparable damage to each other, but bringing something the others can't to the table. Devotion, Embolden, and other damage % 'utility' isn't utility. It's damage. It's the bottom line.

As an example

Red Mages currently bring the ability to shift the burden of raising from the healers to themselves, within reason. This is a strong ability, stronger in encounters where the expense tied to raising is going to mean someone might die down the lie. It shifts that burden from the Healer to the Red Mage. That's the utility.

Summoner and Black Mage do not really have something comparable. Mana Shift isn't unique to them, and honestly, you could argue Mana Shift simply removes the burden of MP for raising while having other uses. But only the Black mage can really make use of that.

So, moving forward, that needs to be adjusted. If Blammo's gotta be scaled down a tad (and honestly, the discrepancy isn't that far now that people are actively giving Summoners a chance), whatever's healthier for the game.

There's a whole other topic I was planning on discussing with Role Abilities, but I can drop part of that here.

Mana Shift should be removed and given and balanced solely around Black Mages. In this regard, it provides them both a similar net of use (Removing the MP burden of raise, though not the GCD burden) while having other uses (Feeding Bards, Feeding other Casters, feeding the Paladin, etc etc).

[aleph_null]

The way I see it, is that it's really only a handicap for groups that are going for world first progression, which is a rather small percentage of the raiding population.
It's not really much of an imbalance for groups that aren't at that high level of play.

It's pretty much a necessity for the groups participating in world/server first race, but while it doesn't matter as much as for those groups, where clearing a few hours slower could mean the difference between being first and not, even for more casual groups the difference of clearing a few days slower isn't really negligible. It could mean losing a week's worth of loots for groups that clear in the first week, for example. How much it matters to them is, of course subjective. I just feel that the presence of (or lack of) rdm in a raid group has much bigger impact than any other job in the game (as in, compared to switching one tank/heal/dps job for a different one).

Any sane RDM is going to focus on learning how best to optimize their damage during progression learning where and when to CaC and Displace, what points it's important to move with DC at, when you should swiftcast instead of hardcasting Jolt 2, our role is DPS not healer bitch. Embolden, again as stated many times in this thread and others, is not that powerful, it's power is vastly overstated, it's an entire .75% more rDPS which when attributed to the RDM gives them an entire 100-150 extra DPS, and since you're so adamant people are dying, is reduced by .125% per person dead. And sure, for cutting edge progression groups like Angered RDM is absolutely mandatory, but for the other 99% of savage raiders, it is far less so, it is more than likely that having several people die means they won't see enrage, much less beat it. You're arguing RDM should be nerfed based on niche scenarios. Stop it.

Hmm well I (and my group) tend to approach progression from a different point of view compared to yours. We try to minimize mp strain on the healers until we're confident that we know how much heal they need to keep people alive through phases. This includes rdm raising before healers, panic heals from pld clemency or war equilibrium. My reasoning is that it's better to lose dps but still be able to live through mechanics/phases, rather than having dps rotation optimized but not being able to continue. Some of my earliest enrage/kill pulls in this tier had a lot of deaths. I found that the change to weakness and the rdm raising capacity made it faster to clear by just pushing through failed mechanics and deaths while hoping that you beat enrage timer, compared to practicing to execute mechanics perfectly and clear the raid in a clean pull.

This is only possible during this tier though, back in gordias/midas and even creator savage you wouldn't even think of clearing with 10+ deaths, since the reduced hp would make it impossible to pass certain mechanics/aoe dmg. Admittedly I don't have much experience with early progression, and I only cleared a12s and o4s on the third week after patch (never cleared a4s/a8s pre echo), so the way my group handles progression can definitely see many improvements.

Embolden is not as strong as hypercharge (slightly less than 1.25% raid dps) and trick attack (1.67% raid dps), but it's still pretty strong in a physical heavy composition.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Then don't apply your groups philosophy as the bottom line for why X or Y should be changed. How you feel about it is not how the state of the game actually is. Objectively, if you're absolutely focused on progression and world/server firsts whatever, RDM is mandatory. If not, RDM is not mandatory. RDM is not going to be the difference between whether or not you'll get loot for a week, discipline and awareness of mechanics is. If your group simply can't get the mechanics right, you're not going to succeed, Verraise spamming or not. Video guides make it very obvious when healers need to heal which is in pretty much two situations, tank busters and raidwide damage. And while non optimal DPS isn't really going to matter on O1S or O2s it's much tighter on O3S and O4S, just being alive to see a mechanic isn't going to help much, actively performing your rotation and doing the mechanic is far more important. RDM is not some god wizard that guarantees raid success and by success I mean a clean clear, not forcing through mechanics with Brink of Death all the time just to see what enrage looks like.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Eh. If they Nerf Verraise they're gonna have to buff Embolden's physical component to at the very least not deteriorate. Maybe even buff that part to 15-20! Bigger FC crits~

[Dualgunner]

Eh. If they Nerf Verraise they're gonna have to buff Embolden's physical component to at the very least not deteriorate. Maybe even buff that part to 15-20! Bigger FC crits~

The buff I'd prefer is make it a general damage increase. Keep the dropoff, keep the range limitation, keep the numbers.

Still, I'd rather the job stay as is without any weird buffs or nerfs.

hardcasting Jolt 2

I haven't actually read up on any Red Mage theorycrafting or anything, but I tend to prioritize swiftcasting verthunder or veraero when the opportunity presents itself. What's the logic behind swifting jolt 2, since it doesn't give dualcast to go on to veraero or verthunder?

I guess I could see it as a quick and cheap way to cheese an impactful proc.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

The buff I'd prefer is make it a general damage increase. Keep the dropoff, keep the range limitation, keep the numbers.

Still, I'd rather the job stay as is without any weird buffs or nerfs.



I haven't actually read up on any Red Mage theorycrafting or anything, but I tend to prioritize swiftcasting verthunder or veraero when the opportunity presents itself. What's the logic behind swifting jolt 2, since it doesn't give dualcast to go on to veraero or verthunder?

I guess I could see it as a quick and cheap way to cheese an impactful proc.

My writing wasn't clear, more as in swiftcasting in general versus hardcasting in general, jolt 2 being the usual go to spell. Although the more I do savage the more I'm questioning the precast Vt/a opener since you only have a 50% chance of getting 2 270 procs as opposed to 100% with a jolt 2 opener.

[Dualgunner]

Although the more I do savage the more I'm questioning the precast Vt/a opener since you only have a 50% chance of getting 2 270 procs as opposed to 100% with a jolt 2 opener.

While you get more procs I (without fully mathing it out) think you get less potency per second.

From precast you get 600 potency in the first two gcds, 720 from double weaving contafleche, and 270 from the one guaranteed proc. So the opening 3 gcds give you ~1590 potency unless I'm overlooking something. From the 300 pot spells you get 11 mana from each, and then 9 mana from the guaranteed proc for 20/11.

From j2 you have 530 in 2 gcds, 720 from contrafleche, then 270 on the third gcd of your choice, for 1520 potency (based on an assumption j2 is 230 on memory alone). You end up with 3/3 from j2, 14/3 from second gcd, and 23/3 or 18/7 on the next cast.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

snip

I figure the measure of potency loss depends somewhat on RNG, Impact making up for 30 of the inital 60 loss, provided you wouldn't have procced the second "Ready" status on the other Vt/a, but since it is somewhat RNG dependent it's hard to math out. I agree you'd be behind on mana though.

[Dualgunner]

I figure the measure of potency loss depends somewhat on RNG, Impact making up for 30 of the inital 60 loss, provided you wouldn't have procced the second "Ready" status on the other Vt/a, but since it is somewhat RNG dependent it's hard to math out. I agree you'd be behind on mana though.

Yeah, after the opening couple of gcds it gets murky due to rng. I'm also biased because I'm too used to precasting Va/t lol

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Yeah, after the opening couple of gcds it gets murky due to rng. I'm also biased because I'm too used to precasting Va/t lol

Actually just thought of this, could just open with Jolt 2 and Vt/a then swift the other one, only a GCD behind and potentially 3 procs optimal, probably not, but some tanks are bad about countdowns.