A talent system

[Eli85]

Nope, no thank you. At the end of the day, MMOs are about output and to a lesser extent, survivability. All talent systems and alternate progression systems do is allow players to make sub-optimal choices. Namely because there is always ONE and ONE ALONE optimal talent choice per boss. If you're smart enough to figure it out, it just becomes tedium by changing talents for optimal output. And the downside? Well, if you run into players who can't figure it out, these under-performers get worse.

edit: We already have seen the negatives of a talent system with Cross Role. I.e., the healers who need to take esuna for a fight but don't. It's frustrating. I'd rather not deal with that and low output DPS, for example, because they don't take the talent that increases DPS substantively.

[Umbeliel]

Horizontal progression please. +1 OP

snip

A strawman that winds up also being an actual common failing of games. Just because it's often poorly implemented doesn't mean it has no potential.
Beyond that we'd get the argument that there's always one "best" way to play- this is most likely true and in reality, is perfectly fine. The meta will always be the meta and there's nothing actually wrong with that. Those of us NOT in the meta are not affected (directly) by playing the game in non-meta ways, as long as it remains not as a hindrance to our parties.

That being said, I'd actually be happier if they did botha spec system of some sort and reduced button bloat in a more... logical way.

There never was, isn't, and never will be any good reason for basic combo actions(Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butcher's Block) to be learned separately and have three different buttons. Branching combos can work just fine, as shown with the pvp changes. Many CDs are completely superfluous(why does Bulwark even exist? It serves the same purpose as Sheltron except it's unreliable.) and could pretty easily be made completely irrelevant with buffed versions of other skills that already exist. There's really no good reason why we don't have our entire basic kit being learned by like, 50(looking at you drk) and everything after that being utility or spec points or something.

[Eli85]

Snip.

The problem is we have seen talent-like systems emerge in almost every game over the history of the genre. In every single instance it is: if you don't choose X then you are doing less output (and output is essentially the only thing that matters). The only time it doesn't matter is when an entire line is say, survivability or utility, but that always comes down to "this gives you the most survivbility so take it" or "for this fight this utility is better so take it." It's so bland and boring.

As for the meta? I think all players should care about it. I PUG a lot. My problem, I know. It's because of my schedule. Anyway, I rather take the choice OUT of the individual players hand if they conform to the meta or not. Just want them in the meta anyway. Gives a greater chance of more successful groups and less trolling / griefing (lol nub you aren't picking the best talent choices, /kick).

[Umbeliel]

snippity snip

And that's totally fine and cool and good! We are friends here and you have my support- I'm just saying that if you don't want non meta people you can just make your own pf to exclude non meta people. Recruit people with specific specs.

The same way that non-meta people now(and, in most cases) wind up having to make their own friend circle or their own parties to do anything, because the meta is generally the norm.

That is, again, assuming squenix themselves completely fail to establish a rough balance with individual specs in the first place.

[Shurrikhan]

Nope, no thank you. At the end of the day, MMOs are about output and to a lesser extent, survivability. All talent systems and alternate progression systems do is allow players to make sub-optimal choices. Namely because there is always ONE and ONE ALONE optimal talent choice per boss. If you're smart enough to figure it out, it just becomes tedium by changing talents for optimal output. And the downside? Well, if you run into players who can't figure it out, these under-performers get worse.

edit: We already have seen the negatives of a talent system with Cross Role. I.e., the healers who need to take esuna for a fight but don't. It's frustrating. I'd rather not deal with that and low output DPS, for example, because they don't take the talent that increases DPS substantively.

Consider WoD, rather than Legion, for a moment. Many of the talent setups performed, optimally, within 2% of each other, while the lower performing ones were often (a) more consistent, (b) better synced with mechanics, (c) required less attention, or (d) took better advantage of particular fight opportunities, reversing that balance yet again anywhere from among casual to even top players (at particular kill speeds).

So your "one" optimal choice depended on composition (how much AoE burst and cleave your group already has, general raid DPS, and how survivable you all will be generally), your skill, and perhaps even your healers' skill. ...That tended to make it at least... two ... choices. Hmm.

Heck, take Wrath and its abundance of talent choices that effectively pared down to some 3-5 builds per class. I regularly outperformed "optimal" specs with my "muddled" spec because I allowed for factors theirs did not, that lay outside their equations and simulations but were nonetheless prevalent in any real fight. In Mists and WoD this was again often the case.

Now, personally I feel that talent systems run into the same issue as the ability acquisitions have thus far in XIV, less an issue of necessary waste as simply that the self-afflicted need to give the same amount of choices to each class tends to actually hamper variety and the balance therein available to each class. I'd much rather have, say, 3-5 overarching traits available out of 5-8, depending on the class as to allow for individual balance of said choices—few but powerful options—rather than some sort of talent trees, talent grid, or PoE / FFX-style sphere grid. But that's not to say that choices themselves are destined to fail. Standardization... systematization... within those choices... those things may well fail due to some critical flaw. The choices themselves may yet be imbalanced. But the idea of choice is not inherently flawed. Not to any degree than a slightly higher percentage of direct hits would be unable to outperform, and at that point you're wailing over standard error.

[Eli85]

Snip.

I think we aren't remembering WoD the same. Even if I accept your premise, no matter how close different setups may be, whatever does the most output is still better than any other selection. Also your anecdotal example from Wrath, while nice, has no real bearing on anything. Sims take player skill out of the equation completely. You cannot "play better" in a "muddied spec" (as you put it) and mathematically play better. If you went in the optimal spec, your numbers would be even higher. So to be clear, whatever your experience may or may not have been, you cannot argue against sims / math.
Sims / math is always right.

Ultimately, however, we're not going to agree. Mostly because I--and many others who are against talent-like systems--stipulate this: there is only the choice between optimal and non-optimal, and objectively, there is no rational, arguable reason for non-optimal.

Snip.

All that does is makes it more difficult to a) recruit for PUGs and b) put groups together. I don't see why allowing a handful of people to be "special snowflakes because i want to be different"--when in fact they are deliberately lowering their output potential--benefits the game and its players in any meaningful way. We are far beyond the days of players having endless time. My time in-game is very limited. I really don't want to deal with having to find players, hope they're in the right spec. Rather just force everyone into optimal. Reduces heaches.

[Mimilu]

People talk about the Meta and what's optimal but how many of you do Savage Raiding, the only place where the Meta actually matters?
And even then, you have groups clearing Savage content with jobs or party comps that are suboptimal.
I'm not saying we need Talent System or anything but talking about what's optimal in this game is a moot point. :B

To get on the topic of a Talent System, I wouldn't mind them adding one in IF they did it with two-or-three builds in mind versus just throwing in a bunch of abilities at random.
Granted, I don't think the Dev team would want to do that much work...

The problem with a talent system in this game is that if you create an alternate route of skills for a different build, you are essentially making a new job and naming it the same as one that already exists. Might as well just keep it a new job.

This I have to agree with. :B

[Syrellaris]

You know, for everything that World of Warcraft did right, it did equal amounts of things wrong. WoW's talent system was and still is Abysmal(i guess, dunno how it is in legion). I've played it all the way from CB to Cataclysm and frankly, the most hated thing in WoW for me was the Talent system. The cookie cutter builds or GTFO mentality really sucks.

The system in FF14 is simply better, it allows for a lot of flexability and can easily be improved on.

[Razard]

People talk about the Meta and what's optimal but how many of you do Savage Raiding, the only place where the Meta actually matters?
And even then, you have groups clearing Savage content with jobs or party comps that are suboptimal.
I'm not saying we need Talent System or anything but talking about what's optimal in this game is a moot point. :B

Not to get on your case specifically. But we all know how much "Muh Meta" has a trickle down effect on non raiders.

Remember 3.0? How inexperienced, undergeared tanks where being slaughtered in the DF because wearing Slaying accessories was "what the raiders do"?

So in summation, the meta in cutting edge raids does have an effect on the lower content.