What do the devs want from SMN?

[Imakun]

Summoner? I thought it was Bahamut Mage.

[loreleidiangelo]

I think with SB SE kinda tried to give the players what they were asking for:

"players: give us bigger egis" > "devs: here take Bahamut himself" > "players: I can't see mechanics, make it smaller" > "Devs: ..."
"players: smn is not a dot class" > "devs: here you are down to 2 dots which are super easy to keep up" > "players: where are my dots?" > "devs: ..."
"players: let's have the egi buff the party" > "devs: devotion, contagion, radiant shield" > "players: not like this" > "devs: ..."

I guess at this point they don't really know anymore what to do with SMN. I'm not surprised the job doesn't work well

I get frustrated at posts like this, because of how deliberately misleading they are in the attempt to defend the devs. They don't have any context, and don't acknowledge which complaints come from largely OUTSIDE the SMN community (Bahamut size), nor do they highlight the various ways in which feedback has been implemented POORLY (Devotion being as clunky as it is - I don't see anyone complain about Contagion or Shield as they're kind of impossible to screw up re: their use).

For instance, your second point. Putting aside the fact that there are different SMNs that like different aspects of the job, your point is incorrect anyway because the devs didn't REMOVE SMN's DoT-reliant playstyle, they just arbitrarily reduced the number of DoTs we have. Theres a huge difference in the feedback that was conveyed there and what was actually implemented. People who dislike SMN's DoT focus didn't want to have to "worry about less DoTs", they didn't want to be using them at all, instead focusing on either building a gauge to summon flashy summons for burst damage or a full pet-based job in which most of the rotation revolved around commanding and buffing the Egis.

Also, let's not be facetious here in regards to your first point: there's a big difference between a realistic moveable/placeable Ifrit model about 3/4th the players' size (using Hyur as the average metric here) and Demi-Bahamut, a non-controllable static entity that stays right next to the SMN no matter what, with a wingspan that could cover an entire raid group. Demi-Bahamut is about 2x the player model side of a Hyur and his wings are pretty ridiculous because they basically down scaled and retextured the Bahamut Prime boss model without thinking about how it would work in a gameplay context. In this case IMO there was absolutely nothing wrong with players' requests because the implementation was so bad, but note that even then most of the people who complained in the big thread about it were non-SMN mains (I'd hazard SMN mains were more used to him).

I'm not even sure where you got the third point, tbh. Wanting pet utility isn't bad per se, but what I saw mostly was that players wanted a reason to choose something other than Garuda in 99% of content, because old Contagion was just too good compared to anything else. I feel like the devs have delivered on that in Stormblood, except I still maintain that Titan-Egi needs to be an AoE pet or something because tank pets in a game where everything meaningful is done with a full trinity group anyway is just too niche.

tl;dr context is important, don't just handwave an entire jobs' problems as being the result of conflicting player feedback when in reality it's up to the developers to parse the chaff from the wheat as it were and come up with a healthy, reasonable vision for the job. Are we DoT mages? A pet class? A burst class? Pick a lane and stick with it SE, because your multiple personality disorder when it comes to this job is frankly making it unenjoyable to play (to ME, in case that wasn't obvious).

[Nezia]

That's what happens when you try to add dots, pets, direct damage and heavy burst into a single class.

[Kazrah]

tl;dr context is important, don't just handwave an entire jobs' problems as being the result of conflicting player feedback when in reality it's up to the developers to parse the chaff from the wheat as it were and come up with a healthy, reasonable vision for the job. Are we DoT mages? A pet class? A burst class? Pick a lane and stick with it SE, because your multiple personality disorder when it comes to this job is frankly making it unenjoyable to play (to ME, in case that wasn't obvious).

Although I definitely agree with this, you still have to admit that devs are getting feedback from players that could result in a circumstance like this. Even Yoshi admitted Machinist to be in the same boat as well, caught in an identity crisis because of different viewpoints on what the job should be. On the other hand though, if devs never used feedback from players, then Paladin probably wouldn't have that extra damage and Bard might still be "the bow mage".

For now (a.k.a. maybe 4.1), devs could still tweak Summoner a bit to at least make it competitive, and maybe SMN players will get used to the playstyle in due time. Over the next couple of years though, devs will hopefully have all the time they need until 5.0 to figure out just what they want Summoner to be as a job and focus more on that one element rather than trying to please everyone all the time.

[Starkbeaumont]

I get frustrated at posts like this, because of how deliberately misleading they are in the attempt to defend the devs.

not defending the Devs at all. Just saying that they addressed some of the points of the community and yet it's not really working out.

at this point they could take away DoTs altogether (or just keep tridisaster) and make the rotation more engaging. it's ridiculous that smn is still casting Ruin I so often even at lv70. Not even going to talk about the RNG aspect of Ruin IV.

[Zigabar]

They want SMNs to equip those RDM soul crystals.

Here's some delicious verkoolaid.

[Kazrah]

Here's some delicious verkoolaid.

That joke is getting ver-y overused.

[loreleidiangelo]

not defending the Devs at all. Just saying that they addressed some of the points of the community and yet it's not really working out.

at this point they could take away DoTs altogether (or just keep tridisaster) and make the rotation more engaging. it's ridiculous that smn is still casting Ruin I so often even at lv70. Not even going to talk about the RNG aspect of Ruin IV.

Fair enough; I admit my accusation was unjustified. Sorry.

That said, while I've never liked the whole "DoTs and Aetherflow" concept for Summoner, I actually admit that in 2.x I never had many grievances with the job's performance or playstyle until Heavensward. I didn't like "Summoner" being a DoT mage, but it was consistent and was more creative than the rotation-based DPS we mostly had in ARR (it just felt more like a Necromancer than a Summoner IMO). I feel like the devs have since TRIED to make it more "like a Summoner", but they've done so without removing the Affliction Warlock copy concepts that frustrated people during 2.0 (ACN remnants like DoTs and Ruin spam), and the resulting hybrid has just made no one happy.

[Caduagm]

I just want my 3.0 smn back.
It was fluid, it was nice and it was amazing. Ty, yw.

[Dyvid]

It's a pet job and SE has put a lot more "weight" on pets now than previous versions. They are required to buff, debuff, and proc ruin now. They also account for 1/3 of the SMN's dps.