Most challenging and wanted DPS class?

[Karshan]

^ this in terms of "challenging"

even when blm didnt have issues, it was one if the hardest if not hardest in endraids..

now its even beeing boycotted, its that bad atm

(hope devs are noticing this)

Indeed. It must feel horrid to have one of simplest rotations (few buttons, not many things to track, set in stone rotation for the most of it) but having the hardest time to actually pull it off in a raid environment because all of that perfect flow only works with no downtime or movement. AT ALL. Like "I beg you boss, be a dummy plz".

I mean even SMN is hard rotation wise even when you know it because of th things to track (if pet on obey) BUT you have a lot more mobility (or less punishment) to deal with mechanics, which leaves you more time to figure it out. In BLM less things to track BUT : procs too short. AF/UI timer too short. Fire I. and I could go on.

About melees, I don't know Ninja in depths, but by the look of it, it's like MCH : simple core rotations, but a lot of timers and oGCD to track though.
DRG has long combos, you want to do the perfect rotation and if you can't, well....

Range : simple when you look at it from afar. When you dive in, you realize that with the numerous procs, oGCD, and support abilities, there are many things to track and it can become quite hard in progress. But it's an assured team spot and you get the love.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yes, that's right. No offense taken. I started playing 3-4 months ago with Monk and then switched to Samurai right at level 50 - so no, I had no experience in Savage before.
But I disagree - mismanaged Kenki and buffs cost you a lot of dps. I have spent hours on the dummy, and it ranges between 4.2k with mismanaged kenki and buffs to less screw ups 4.8k to a perfect rotation like my mentor does - 5.5k.

I also disagree that every inexperienced player would pull low numbers on any job. There are better classes to start off than Samurai. I levelled RDM for a while and it was a walk in the park compared - I just didn't enjoy it. But of course, you are right that melee experience plays a role - exploiting the uptime is what makes a huge difference in your dps.

I mean comparatively to its melee counterparts. Both will impact you if consistently mismanaged, but the occasional slip won't cause a huge loss towards your DPS. Likewise, it's comparatively easier to manage Kenki whereas misjudging Huton and allowing it to fall off severely impacts you and/or the raid.

As for other jobs, I was only comparing Samurai against the other three melee. With more experience, especially if you start to dabble in other jobs more, I suspect you'll find Samurai isn't that hard to manage. And I don't say any of this to discourage your own performance. Just speaking from someone who has played all four melee, albeit Monk I haven't taken into Savage yet.

[Crizhalid]

NIN and MCH (despite the lulls in rotation) tend to have higher APM and are sought after jobs/roles.

[Vshunyi]

Based on PF static recruitment I see, BRD/MCH are the most in demand. BRDs are plenty, sure, but it seems pretty difficult to find a good BRD/MCH. Also, not a lot of people don't play MCH, so people also look for those often when they're doing speedruns. The most value I think would be if you can play RDM for prog but can swap to BRD/MCH for speedruns. That really depends on what type of group you're in though.

Everyone and their mothers (esp the tanks) want a NIN too, so you could look into that if you want a melee job.

All those three are pretty high APM/CPM jobs, so it could be challenging if fast button presses are what you find difficult.

[aeoncs]

If you want to perform close to the highest possibile level, SAM is probably the most challenging melee. It has an extremely high skill ceiling, but a very low skill floor.

I know I'm kinda necro'ing here but I'm wondering if you, and others, would stick by that opinion today. Right after SB was released many people were of a similar opinion but imo SAM is most definitely the easiest melee in Savage/Extreme content.
It doesn't get punished for "having to do mechanics", phase transitions or downtimes in the slightest if you use Hagakure correctly, which is probably the only moderately challenging part aside from Kenki/Kaiten management. It also has no buffs or cooldowns to sync with your raid, save for maybe holding on to Guren for 4-5 seconds for an upcoming TA. Tbh, it's probably about as easy as RDM in said content.

B2T:

Most challenging jobs to pick up and do well/ok with: I'd have to go with Dragoon and Summoner
Highest skill ceiling/most challenging job to maximize: Probably Bard, Ninja and Monk
Most wanted: Really depends on whether you're doing serious progression, speed runs or just casual raiding but Ninja > BRD = DRG are probably always first in each scenario.

That being said, I've barely spent any time with Bard & Ninja at 70 on an Alt, so some of that is guesswork.

[silentwindfr]

before start i want to make clear that it's my viewpoint of the subject, it's subjective, it can be different your, but that my feeling about it.

erm, i think i'm not the only one thinking this, but monk don't have a high skill ceiling, actually from all the melee is maybe the simplest of all. the rotation is quite straightforward and didn't change much since 2.0 (what is pointed as bad). the only hard part is link in the reward/punishement of the jobs, if you failt to keep grease lightning you loose 30% of damage and 15% of speed. and instead to change this and make it more interesting, like take out the damage boost from it and only leave the speed... we end with a jobs clunky at best.

i did notice that less and less people talk of the monk, mostly because a lot of monk did simply drop the job... because right now stormblood that was showcase like a monk expansion, is maybe the worst ever expension for the monk.
the rework did take out skill, yes, but did leave some of the most useless one... we still only use around 20% of our kit, the job evolution is near 0. we did get a new system in HW with chakra and instead to work on it, they simply did think that add new way to get chakra was enough, without add new skill to that.

instead to make use more a dps, we did get a tank buff, we did even get a charge that push enemy! for god sake... a lot of monk is waiting friday and hope that yoshida and his team finally give us an expansion experience for the monk... because soo far... all we did get are junk that don't change most our gameplay and don't make us hard to play clearly not.

i want them to develop more the free combo system, that is the core of the monk gameplay, is not grease lightning... it's the free combo system allowing us to use any skill of the right stance for create our own combo and adapt to the situation, the trouble is... this system was left alone for too long, why? because they are scared that it become too difficult to play. why we didn't get skill usable in front? why didn't we get true aoe because really our aoe is junk outside the ogcd one the combo are junk.

why? because grease lightning is a freaking shackle that plague the monk instead to really develop it. because we do get damage from it... all our potency are simply joke... because most of the damage we can deal will come from auto attack. that why the riddle of fire was created like this.. reducing the speed of the weaponskill while increasing the damage.

you want some change? take out the damage boost from grease lightning, add more skill usable in the free combo system, add more skill using chakra and please make it we get more chakra charge from critical... i can spend a lot of time while dealing a lot of critical without get any charge.
and even like this... all will depend of what they will add and change... because we still have the fist that is simply an useless bunch of skill or one ilm punch that is a joke... a silence in our free combo? seriously? really? seriously? even when silence was usefull... bard was doing it, because it's almost impossible to make sure we are in the right stance for silence.

some of the skill we have will have been nice in pvp... but in pve... they joke.

then do the monk have change, nope... actually he do have a decent dps, but a shitty gameplay. for make simple you can deal good dps, but you will barely enjoy it... why punish yourself to play monk, when sam, drg and nin are more fun and more challenging to play.

the situation of the monk is still the same we did describe even before the release of the game, since the moment we did learn about the new skill. nothing was changed and worst it's this:

Q. Monk?

A. Monk is a tough topic, but we are considering adjusting it. Please wait for the details.

that one of the answer of yoshida when he was playing on japanese server and people have asked stuff to him.
i don't where it's a tough topic, is a clear topic of a let down... but i'm still hopefull that friday while the live letter come out, yoshida we announce a rework of what we did get... even if it don't come for the 4.2, but it's needed... because soo far the monk is clunky at best and the worst experience as melee job available.

[Shiroe]

melee:

for me drg 50 and 60 where the easiest melee imo, at 68 still feels easier than sam at 68 or mnk at 60 (punishment is another issue)

skill "floor" of sam is lowish, the skill "ceiling" of sam is high, just the sam sometimes gets/hogs dps buffs, making average sam seem very good at times

i often hear sam and nin have the highest skill ceiling for melee dps (mnk close 2nd)

but nin is more wanted, the most wanted melee next to drg (but mnk is more desirable than sam, unless the party has no nin and no war tank)

even if "imo" drg is the "easiest" melee, its still lots of fun sofar and still has a good skill ceiling for mastering it + has the coolest melee glamour ^^
overall most challenging melee: sam = nin =/> mnk > drg
most wanted melee: drg =/> nin > mnk =/> sam

(but seems nin is the most server ping dependent melee, but not bad)

most endraids and the "meta" comps have 2 melee (drg & nin), but a sam (slashing) or mnk (mantra/ brotherhood) are sometimes valid

[aeoncs]

before start i want to make clear that it's my viewpoint of the subject, it's subjective, it can be different your, but that my feeling about it.

erm, i think i'm not the only one thinking this, but monk don't have a high skill ceiling, actually from all the melee is maybe the simplest of all.

I already had to stop reading here. Your Monk is level 68, so unless you have a second character.... what exactly do you know of its skill ceiling?

Skill ceiling = playing a job as close to perfect as possible in the most challenging content available.

[silentwindfr]

*sighs* you realize that the only skill missing to my monk is brotherhood? and it's the proof that you are kinda rude too... the game is not only the end game content (aka raid) some people try to be good with them jobs from the get go...

but here the twist about the monk, the skill added in stormblood have no impact on the skill ceiling you talk about... know where launch a cooldown is not something that only monk have... any jobs have this sort of thing and each dps follows the same rule about when to use your cooldown.

i will go farer, refuse a viewpoint because people don't play raid is narrow minded... if people don't play raid it can be many reason, not enough time, no static, not interested, not finding it fun and such.
finally my feeling and viewpoint is as important than someone that play in raid... because we all play the same game.

why my monk is still 68? because i don't have any fun with the add of the expansion, the rotation is the same since the V2... what i have pointed out. and i'm not the only one pointing out this. any good monk will say it... stormblood in terms of add was close of the level 0... and the rework was a joke a bad one.

you maybe have a monk, but i play monk since it was added in the v1... i did know the worst and the best... and soo far stormblood in terms of add of experience or fun... is at the same level than the monk V1. i'm violent but between the tank buff, the skill that allows us to come close the range that will push the enemy away of us... the trait that buff one of the less used skill, the buff of damage that negate the actual speed of the monk since it's kinda the base of the class or the lack of work on the core mechanic of the monk since ages...

you maybe find fun in the monk, but when you have played it as long than me...when an expansion arrive, you expect to have change in the job that will add to the experience and fun. and stormblood didn't do any of this.

then before judge people because they don't own the jobs to max level and haven't done raiding with it when you don't need raiding for even know that something is wrong... try to read all.

like said, the monk do have a decent dps, but the gameplay and fun factor make it the worst of stormblood.

ps: anyway, the skill ceiling of the monk is not that high, the rotation is simple and with a bit of training can become something at the limit of the automatic. it don't recquire to keep an eyes on a debuff or a buff since if you follows the rotation they will be put it bac naturally, the flows of the combo we use since the v2 have become more stable with the increase duration of grease lightning. but that what i point out, it's something we did mastered since the v2 it was time to add change to it make us get new tool usable... the rework was needing to be more violent because a lot of the skill we have are still too situational and have a very rare utility.

pss: for me a game that only balance the jobs for the end game fail... since the end game is not the biggest part of the game. they need to balance the game in the whole. same a game that deliver a jobs or class that can deal damage but have a boring gameplay or a non evolution of it over the expansion and such is too a failure.

[aeoncs]

Snip

Lmao, what? I'm not rude at all, you're simply talking about things you don't understand. Talking about the skill ceiling of a job you're still leveling or only doing dungeons/story content with is plain ignorant - performing well in content like that is an entirely different kettle of fish in comparison to Savage/extreme primals. Now if you had said that Monk is pretty easy to pick up and do ok with, I'd agree, but you didn't.

And yes, the skills Monk got in SB did make the job harder. That you don't seem to think so is just more proof that you don't have any meaningful insight to offer. RoF is more difficult to utilize and optimize than BfB was, Brotherhood should only be used at a time where everyone who benefits from it can have 100% uptime, if possible, for its full duration and RoE is a downtime and transition phase mechanic that the job didn't have before. Also, using ToD in HW actually made the rotation smoother than it is now.

Not going to respond to the rest of your rant as it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Do I think that the SB Monk has received the attention it deserves? No, but that is neither here nor there, we have other threads for that.