Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Miste]

Oh, and if my tank doesn't want to sword oath tank, I wont yell at him or say he's bad

But. if your tank doesn't want to use Shield Oath you will criticize, call him bad, and insinuate he was "carried" because his playstyle was bad. You cannot say someone was "carried" without the insinuation that they were bad. If someone, in your eyes, needed to be carried then by default they were bad in your eyes. If you didn't think they were bad you wouldn't feel like they were being carried in the first place. Yet you keep insisting you shouldn't call others bad for their playstyle choice or skill level.

We carried him because he was making errors, and despite being told, never tried to correct them

Why does he need to correct his mistakes? It is only DF right? Asking someone to "play better" in it is by your own definition elitist.

Also you said before that you should not belittle someone from a feeling of superiority. Saying someone was "carried" is belittling them and acting superior over them. I personally try to avoid that term as much as possible because it is so negative.

Tank using Sword Oath in DF. You ask him to use Shield Oath first then switch because it is the "better way to play."

Healer not DPSing in DF. We ask them to DPS some because it is the "better way to play."

There is no difference here striped down to basics.

So, yes, you are being hypocritical. You seem to think you are allowed to criticize the tank's playstyle and ask him to change his playstyle to something "better", but if we ask the same thing of healers we are elitists and should not be doing that in DF.

So no these are not "lies" and I was not trying to make you look bad. I was and am trying to show you exactly the problem with what you are saying, whether you realize that problem or not, to try to explain to you that if you are allowed to do that to the tank and not be an elitist then neither are we because all these virtues and things you told others "not to do" you are actively doing the same things.

You said....

I think the real problem here is that you guys consider everything from your own POV... not from other people's

Take your own advice here and look at what I am saying to you in an objective light. You like to throw the word "belittle" and "superior" around and tell people things like "It might not look like it to you, but this is definitely belittling coming from a feeling of superiority" direct quote from you. You don't realize you have done and are still actively doing the same thing you are telling others not to do.

You say "don't call people bad, belittle, or criticize them over skill from a feeling of superiority", but you've shown you've actively done the exact same thing (which I mention above) and in the last few posts are still continuing to do it repeating multiple times about his "mistakes" and that you "carried" him. You even called him pretentious and his playstyle "crazy".

And if the community starts to rot because of that elitist rubbish, believe me, you may like it or not, but YoshiP will side with the casual and spit on the elite

I am not even going to bother to fully explain the problems with or open the can of worms that is this^ statement you made since it should be obvious . The more you post the more you are showing that the virtues you demand others to uphold aren't virtues you actually posses either.

And please tell me what is so hard to understand when I say that that kind of mentality, understand elitist mentality, is the one thing that creates toxic players ?
To me, it looks like you guys do not want to see it.

You are not taking your own advice again about looking at this from another person's POV. You think your experiences are the only ones so it leads you to think that there is only one singular thing that somehow creates toxic players. When in truth some people are simply toxic because they feel like it or because they want to be and not anything to do with their past, present, or current skill at the game.

Just so you know, in my experiences over the 4 years in this game, the people who have been toxic that I've personally seen are not "elite". In my personal experience with sometimes coming across toxic players is that they have been casual players who do not do hardcore content like Savage raids and they generally are players who do not play their jobs well or with high skill (and just so you don't get on my case, I am not saying they are bad, I am saying this from an objective factual standpoint on how jobs should be played in this game based on their design and optimization). So toxicity can come from anyone and anywhere. Trying to claim only "elite" players are causing toxicity is a blatant lie.

[magnanimousCynic]

Keep playing it elitist like that, and you'll end up with rotten community like wow's...
And if the community starts to rot because of that elitist rubbish, believe me, you may like it or not, but YoshiP will side with the casual and spit on the elite...

My sides have officially gone into orbit.

Are we completely sure Moogly isn't baiting us?

[Astral145]

Dear devs please remove the decreased damage % in tank stance and give us the damage increase from dps stance. Also, allow tanks to use all skills in all stances. Stance dancing needs to go away and only to be used when tank swapping.

This will fix all of these issues above..... and then some.

[Taika]

If an healer does is primary job aka letting nobody die in an boss fight, then he is doing more than an dd who can't even meet the easiest dmg checks, despite pushing (far) less buttons.

Jollyy was talking about effort, not performance, though. Some boss fights may not require any healing at all from the healer (and many require almost no healing at all). If the party survives, and the healer hasn't done anything at all during the fight, they haven't given any effort. If DDs are pushing buttons and trying to use correct abilities, they are giving effort - even if they're failing. The DDs have high effort (in a way) but lousy performance, the healer has low effort and still lousy performance (because "did everyone stay alive" is not a reasonable metric for healer performance in most of the content in this game).

[Jollyy5]

To start fresh here:

In this game we have Mentors, who are more experienced players who have at least one class of each role at max level. What a mentor does is to help and give advice to new players on how the game works in general, as well as how to perform in different roles.

So if I am giving advice to a fledling healer, I'm only running them through the basics, to perform their role adequately, as in: correctly.

I base that advice on what I have learned while playing a healer, as well as what the game and/or majority expects of a healer, and unless I'm horribly mistaken, me, the game, and the majority all expect an adequate healer to do their ABCs, the basics of the basics.

"ABC" as in "Always Be Casting"

To elaborate, "Always Be Casting" at the core means that if people need to be healed, heal them, but if they don't need healing, don't just stand there and cast some damaging spells.

The "pure healer" that Moogly has mentioned multiple times is not performing these ABCs, they are not performing the basics, as such they are "not good", which is essentially just a roundabout way of saying "bad".


To prove my point, here's the game summarizing it quite nicely, in a picture I already posted:https://i.imgur.com/3wXop7L.jpg


And to prove that players who expect healers to deal damage while healing is not needed are not the minority:https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/6780...eborn/71905002

Sure, you don't HAVE to heal, but if you want to avoid other players getting on your case, and if you want to avoid forum threads like this from happening, please, at least throw a singe DoT during downtime.


I can't stress it enough that I'm mainly talking about HIGH levels here (60+), I am not expecting NEW healers to deal damage out the box, but once they are at a level where they can take on Hall of the Novice, they will tell you exactly what kind of mindset you should go to dungeons with.

And before anyone pulls out "bad DPS" or "bad Tank" arguments, which are awfully off-topic by the way, I will say this:

If a DPS is not performing adequately, as in not even managing to pull off a 1, 2, 3 combo, they should be adviced to do so.

If a Tank is not performing adequately, as in not holding aggro and/or using any defensive cooldowns, they should be adviced to do so.

[GDFletcher]

Here is a novel idea

Tank will Tank
DPS will Damage
Healer will Heal

Mind Blown ....

[Taika]

Here is a novel idea

Tank will Tank
DPS will Damage
Healer will Heal

Mind Blown ....

- PLD will use Flash and do nothing else. They will Flash 5 times and then go afk until it's time to do the next pull.
- BRD will do their DPS rotation (or at least something like that: DPS is DPS, right - no one can demand you to use your songs or damage buffs, after all they do no direct damage and your role is called DPS!!!111) but not stun, silence, give TP or MP, use their self heals (Second Wind) or defense buffs (Palisade, Troubadur), or remove debuffs from party members (Warden's Paean). Remember, you're a strong independent BRD and no caster can force you to Requiem!!!1
- WHM will only use their healing abilities. They will cast regen, and go afk. When tank goes low, they will cast Cure II, and go back afk. Repeat for the next pull!

Yeah, sounds like a great party, sign me up!

[Zojha]

Here is a novel idea

Tank will Tank
DPS will Damage
Healer will Heal

Mind Blown ....

Tank spams Flash
DPS Autoattack
Healer spams Cure

Roles fulfilled \o/

[GDFletcher]

Tank spams Flash
DPS Autoattack
Healer spams Cure

Roles fulfilled \o/

And that is looking at it simplistically like always, with this community.

1. Tanking

The initial pull will clearly require the use of Flash or equivalent to initially gain control of the mobs that you are present with
The tank will proceed to use the abilities under their toolkit to keep the mob, be that CoS, Flash, TE etc on PLD or whatever WAR/DRK use on their bars.
If on boss the Tank will have a dps rotation, threat rotation and a regen rotation which would be used.~

2. DPS
Attack the mobs in order of annoyance until the pack is killed or the boss is killed
DPS such as MCH and BRD can use their "Support" toolkit to boost damage/regen and help the party output better
RDM can use their Embolden to increase the damage output of Melee

3. Healer
Depending on the class of healer, obviously keep the party up
AST - utilise cards to increase performance of those DPSing
SCH - utilise the mitigation heal on Tank
WHM - Do what they do best with Regen and Massive heals

At no point should the healer be forced to DPS but if they can hit out one or two mobs with DOTs then fine, the mana waste on DPS doesn't help when the Tank goes off an massively pulls the entire dungeon

[Wanzer]

Aaaaand we are back to square one.
Can't wait to read the next 70 pages of "nobody forces anybody/yes you are, elitists".