Remove PLD Utility?

[Launched]

You'd still take PLD+DRK for easy, high dps and free Intervention+TBN for every tankbuster.

[Lyth]

...

Data from the first two weeks shows that WAR provides the highest dps by a significant margin on pretty much every fight across all skill levels. There's no need for assistance from Intervention or TBN when you have the largest free mitigation toolkit in the game (although you'll always have at least one of these available), and most of your resource costs were stripped away with 4.05. WAR has the least amount of variation in dps with percentile, indicating that it's the most forgiving to optimise. As it was in HW, if you're complaining about DRK outperforming you, you're simply playing with a significantly higher skilled tank (i.e. by at least 10-20 percentiles minimum).

[AdamZ]

Data from the first two weeks shows that WAR provides the highest dps by a significant margin on pretty much every fight across all skill levels.

It is a 3-4% difference from WAR to Pally in the 75+ (not sure what is "significant" by your def). You can't take parses across all percentiles ranges and call them skill/what the job does at this point, tank/dps stance uptime is not being factored in, and the usage of these is more often determined of the parties skill. You are trying to compare tank damage like dps damage, it does not work, unless you are looking at the top of the range, because at that point you know the player, no matter the class, has close to 100% uptime on dps stance.

Look we get it, you want DRK damage buffed, don't think there is anyone out there saying not to buff DRK damage, but stop downplaying the clear edge Pally has.

[Launched]

Data from the first two weeks shows that WAR provides the highest dps by a significant margin on pretty much every fight across all skill levels. There's no need for assistance from Intervention or TBN when you have the largest free mitigation toolkit in the game (although you'll always have at least one of these available), and most of your resource costs were stripped away with 4.05. WAR has the least amount of variation in dps with percentile, indicating that it's the most forgiving to optimise. As it was in HW, if you're complaining about DRK outperforming you, you're simply playing with a significantly higher skilled tank (i.e. by at least 10-20 percentiles minimum).

You're looking at the numbers but making no effort to understand them. High percentiles have all 3 tanks at similar DPS because those players can optimise all 3 tanks and maximise DPS uptime. The lower you go, the more likely you'll see groups that just have the PLD/DRK MT with 100% tank stance uptime while the WAR stays in Deliverance just because that's what they did for all of ARR and HW. At that point it doesn't matter that WAR is more awkward, because the PLDs and DRKs are operating with a permanent 20%+ penalty.

At 95th percentile (a good place to look at how jobs actually compare to each other), WAR is <100 DPS ahead of PLD. You can't seriously think that's a significant margin when we're able to do 3000+ DPS. WAR's "superior" mitigation and DPS clearly aren't enough to make it more desirable in O3S/O4S, the current hardest fights. If PLD/DRK utility didn't actually mean anything, they wouldn't have triple the Neo Exdeath clears that WAR does. Seems like DPS actually isn't the only metric for tanks.

[Seku]

Not too sure why people are trying to down play plds support abilities. But 15 percent reduction on the group is a lot. Its not needed in any thing but prog in theory. But the truth is most people here don't have the ability to play their job to their fullest. That and when placed with other mitigation options it gets ridiculous. The only thing they need to do now is get rid of the cure componet for dv

[Shinkyo]

Removing pld utility moves wouldn't change the meta since even without them, pld would still be the better designed tank overall.
They are easier to play, have sustained dps that's less impacted by mechanics, can completely skip mechanics with HG, and good passive mitigation from blocks.
It would balance out the tanks a bit more though

[Dortharl]

Removing pld utility moves wouldn't change the meta since even without them, pld would still be the better designed tank overall.
They are easier to play, have sustained dps that's less impacted by mechanics, can completely skip mechanics with HG, and good passive mitigation from blocks.
It would balance out the tanks a bit more though

Saying PLD is easier to play than WAR is ridiculous, and the skipping of mechanics with HG does not work anymore. If you wish to critique class design you should limit the hyperbole. At this point I'm glad SE does not balance classes using community feedback because this forum has become farcical.

[Shinkyo]

snip

What's ridiculous about PLD being easier to play exactly? Everything in their rotation lines up perfectly and hardly anything hurts their DPS uptime.
Playing PLD from a DPS standpoint is like driving with a GPS and with green lights all the way.
In comparison, DRK can only outdps PLD if they maximize buff windows like Trick Attack which requires planning and gauge management.
WAR is the most complex of tanks from a rotation standpoint and their dps sinks if they have to deal with mechanics.


As for HG, even if you still get debuffed now, it's still allows you to ignore mechanics and survive with little burden to your healers.
You fucked up mindjack in V3S and walked to the wrong location? Hallowed will save you.

And no I am not criticizing class design, on the contrary I'm just highlighting how well PLD is designed currently.
As for the other Tanks, both WAR and DRK currently suffer from having 1 skill that are completely Core to their class (IR, TBN) which hurts you a great deal when you're not in a position to use it. It's not all bad per say but PLD doesn't have that issue.

[Dzian]

Hm, if we give PLD a gap closer for further homogenization, then we might have to adjust Holy Spirit range a bit, but otherwise, you do have a good point there. If all tanks were equal we might as well just throw it all into 1 class and call it a day, that would make the game indeed rather boring.

Screw homogenization it's already killed job identity.

Need to diversify jobs not homogonize.

Paladin doesn't need a gap closer either. I really don't get what the obsession with having one is all about.

[Tufelhunden]

Every Palladin says the utility is worthless, so yes I agree it should be removed. Funny thing is those same Palladins are now arguing for keeping the utility. Which is it worthless or they want it. Can't have it both ways.