How a Shapeshifter Could Work in FFXIV

[kikix12]

Loot pool logic is something that developers can easily "fix". The first though that comes to mind as just an example is giving guaranteed chest upon defeat of the boss that will give one piece of gear for whatever class you open it as. Something like the chests with Red Mage and Samurai gears, except only one piece and based on the current class, not for a fixed one.
After that, add one drop that is randomly chosen for people to need/greed/pass on. And voila. Whether there is one class or a hundred, each with their own gear, they'll get at least a piece.

Another example is trading. Have X pieces for other classes?! Exchange them for a piece from the set of a class of your choice. And suddenly, all those "failed" runs where all you got was gear useless for you will net you that one piece you wanted.

This is a problem in the players and developers heads (manifested as a result). It's not a problem in reality. I have no idea why people still, after all the MMO's out there, after all the solutions (some of them having part in this very game!) already found, still think there is such a problem as loot pool.

[Brightshadow]

Honestly the shapeshifter of this series is a Blue Mage. If Square wants to add a shapeshifter they should just add Blue Mage, which is basically a monster tanking since they use monster abilities.

As for gear, there is no reason why they can't just use Intelligence gear. All they need is a trait that converts Intellect to VIT. As for your shapeshifter I have an idea.

You know how in FFIX garnet would sometimes get like critical hit when summoning and have the full summon animation instead of a half summon animation. Perhaps blue magic could work similar. When using spells normal they would just use monster animation, but when Crit or an ability is used the spirit of the enemy would appear in back of the BLU to use the ability or something like that. Which would feel like a shapeshifter.

[Kazrah]

Honestly the shapeshifter of this series is a Blue Mage. If Square wants to add a shapeshifter they should just add Blue Mage, which is basically a monster tanking since they use monster abilities.

As for gear, there is no reason why they can't just use Intelligence gear. All they need is a trait that converts Intellect to VIT. As for your shapeshifter I have an idea.

You know how in FFIX garnet would sometimes get like critical hit when summoning and have the full summon animation instead of a half summon animation. Perhaps blue magic could work similar. When using spells normal they would just use monster animation, but when Crit or an ability is used the spirit of the enemy would appear in back of the BLU to use the ability or something like that. Which would feel like a shapeshifter.

Although that's not quite really a shapeshifter, I do like that approach to BLU. Thing to bear in mind though is that BLU only used monster abilities, never becoming the monster. Just because a CNJ and a spriggan both use Stone, that doesn't make that CNJ a spriggan. Same case with BLU, which was one of the reasons why I made this concept as a tank rather than a BLU.

Also, thank you all for the feedback. Keep it coming!

[Shurrikhan]

While I like the concept generally, this seems more like an Esper with just faintly differentiated buff forms / reskins. I don't understand why you would take all the potential of corporeal shift-forms and then shoehorn them into a caster.

[Shippuu]

By that loot pool logic, we shouldn't have DRG.* Or NIN.* Or any melee in Heavensward since each one of them had exclusive gear, so that's not really an excuse.

Except that's not how it works and you know it. DPS jobs having their own individual gear worked at 2.0's launch partially because it was a holdover from 1.0's days. Those jobs have their own tier of gear because they must and are staples of either FF games, or Fantasy RPGs. Ninja follows the same way, as claimed by yoshida was a rogue class staple that he felt was necessary to any successful fantasy game/setting. There's also the likelihood of a longer term plan that intends for NIN to share gear with a future job (Dancer comes to mind) so that it remaining it's own set may simply be temporary, we don't know.

Most of the jobs added since then could have easily had their own tier of gear, samurai, red mage, etc. But they don't because from a developmental standpoint it's a bad idea. They have enough problems creating the art assets alone as they re-use the designs for every set of gear and that's with a tremendous amount of gear sharing. It's more work for the devs and more of a pain for the players as the loot pool would become ever more polluted.

As for an option to use DPS gear, have a starting trait put in that increases Vitality and defenses while increasing Tenacity by an amount equal to Direct Hit gained from gear and adjust potencies to compensate for the increased damage caused by dealing magic damage.* Other features can be balanced passively, so it's not really that much of a nightmare for balancing.

It absolutely is not that easy. You can't just handwave it away saying a passive would cover everything because these stats aren't always static uncreases. That's not even touching the complication of looking at gear that shows direct hit but when worn on a tank it's actually being converted to tenacity. The skills have different stat weights and it could seriously cause other issues such as when it comes to melding. From a coding perspective it's preposterous to demand such extra hidden systems to be developed for a single job for literally no reason when they can simply be developed to wear appropriate gear.

This can also create terrible balancing issues if the job shares gear with a dps, as adjusting one stat for a tank can buff or nerf the dps side too much. That's not even talking about the asinine notion of a tank having to compete with dps for equipment in all content.

As for a tank dealing magic damage, we now already have two of those,

There's a huge difference between a job that deals SOME magic damage, and a job that deals ONLY magic damage. DRK is already at a disadvantage in the situations I mentioned, but they're still capable of fulfilling their role adequately because their main form of damage and enmity is not hindered.

Glad you pointed out we have 2 magic themed tanks already, showing the redundancy of creating yet another one.

which tells me that not only would mechanics revolving around opposing magic damage not be as big of a thing, but devs would probably know how to implement them in such a way that that sort of mechanic would not apply to any job in a tank role and could potentially retroactively adjust what fights have these mechanics accordingly should there be enough demand for it.

And there it is, the need for special exceptions. At that point, the tank isn't dealing magic damage then, they're dealing special kind of damage that only they can do, at which point there is zero reason for them to not simply do the same type of damage the existing tanks do. Special damage and exceptions makes for harder balancing which they already clearly have problems with.

Of course if devs happen to be as inept as you seem to imply them to be (which I definitely don't),

You can be optimistic all you want but they're still humans who have very busy work schedules. Their choices with tank balancing for 4.0 have been incredibly questionable and there is no denying it.

With the whole "being different" thing, look at SAM. Everyone was expecting it to be just like the armored tank of FFXI, but Yoshi decided to have SAM as something different, and despite the whining and moaning at first, people enjoy it now.*

Oh look, now who's speaking on the behalf of a demographic? Irony.

but there could just as easily be a tank that breaks that rule, much like a DPS that can heal.

As we established, no, it is not something that is easy and comes with many, many, many complications. At least the way you're trying to put forward.

If what you say is true and more caster players would favor it than tank players, then guess what?

Dude, listen to what you're saying. The demographics just aren't there. Tank player retention is arguably more important than trying to lure new players into the role. You'd be taking a massive gamble that simply isn't worth it. Only if the entire caster population switched to it would it then be worth it, or even half, but that's not going to happen. Realistically you can't force people to play roles they don't like. Even then, the larger dps demographic is still melee dps and even your mage tank still has melee combos. There's more to caster players than just wanting to do magic damage and wearing a robe, it's the playstyle of having actual cast bars which doesn't work all that well for a tank and is already covered by paladin.

[Shurrikhan]

Except that's not how it works and you know it. DPS jobs having their own individual gear worked at 2.0's launch partially because it was a holdover from 1.0's days.

Pre-yoshida 1.x actually had far more gear overlap than 2.0. Perhaps we could trim a fair bit of inventory bloat by moving back towards that, in fact, especially if paired with the below [job-dependent gear stats]...

That's not even touching the complication of looking at gear that shows direct hit but when worn on a tank it's actually being converted to tenacity.

This can also create terrible balancing issues if the job shares gear with a dps, as adjusting one stat for a tank can buff or nerf the dps side too much. That's not even talking about the asinine notion of a tank having to compete with dps for equipment in all content.

Complicated? What? It's an tag/index, the stats attached to which could be made dependent on the equipping class, e.g. item12312a, item12312b. You can adjust how it works for the tank equipping it without touching how it works for the DPS equipping it whatsoever. This is done frequently in other MMOs.

...Granted, just because every other MMO is capable of, say, swimming without needing a brief zone transition on every dive/surface, isn't to say that XIV's devs are likewise capable, but this too is in a few too many MMOs to call "impossible" (you know, like having glamours in PvP was theoretically "impossible" until a whole two patches later...).

Just my nit-pick, as I actually think that the benefits of such a system would already extend well beyond a single new job's use. Agreed on all other points.

[Shippuu]

This is a problem in the players and developers heads (manifested as a result). It's not a problem in reality. I have no idea why people still, after all the MMO's out there, after all the solutions (some of them having part in this very game!) already found, still think there is such a problem as loot pool.

It's not a problem of players or the devs saying there isn't a solution, it's the practicality of of developing it for a game that comes out with such regular content updates. Resources and time are finite and from a development standpoint there is little logic in developing an entirely new system as well as increasing the workload of the asset team, itemization team, etc. When a simpler solution is on hand by simply creating jobs that continue to share the existing gear.

It's a matter of choosing the path of least resistance which is absolutely necessary in developing this game.

Later Edit, rather than make another post:

As for gear, there is no reason why they can't just use Intelligence gear. All they need is a trait that converts Intellect to VIT.

This is exactly the problem when people start talking how things would be so easy, they show they have no idea what they're on about. You are aware that Int gear already has Vitality on it, right? And that converting all the Int into Vitality would mean that tank has more HP than the others by quite a bit, on top of that, they now have no primary DPS stat to go off of.

There are plenty of reasons a tank cannot easily use Intelligence gear, many of which I've already listed.

Complicated? What? It's an tag/index, the stats attached to which could be made dependent on the equipping class, e.g. item12312a, item12312b. You can adjust how it works for the tank equipping it without touching how it works for the DPS equipping it whatsoever. This is done frequently in other MMOs.

It's complicated in the sense of itemization, and on the end users (the players), having to consider equipment that has different stats depending on which job is wearing it. It creates a massive gearing issue between the jobs sharing it, you're still in essence creating 2 different pieces of equipment except with the added development of creating a system to easily display these stats. It still doesn't broach the idea of how it's generally a bad idea for different roles to have to compete with each other for loot. Part of a perk of playing a tank or healer is just that, knowing in most content you are relatively uncontested for drops. This works as a positive incentive for players to play tanks/healers, and taking that away is a step backwards towards getting more people to play the role(s).

but this too is in a few too many MMOs to call "impossible"

Please do point out where I ever said it was impossible, because I absolutely never did.

[Zarabeth]

I don't think shapeshifters really fit into the lore. However a caster tank would be cool. Also you are super creative! You should be working for a gaming company.

[Kazrah]

I don't think shapeshifters really fit into the lore. However a caster tank would be cool. Also you are super creative! You should be working for a gaming company.

Thanks! I did have another concept for a caster tank, but Green Mage has a bit of difficulty differentiating itself thematically with what we have for White Mage in FFXIV. I am curious though as to why you think a shapeshifter wouldn't fit into the lore, especially since lore can usually be curbed so some concepts could be implemented.

Please do point out where I ever said it was impossible, because I absolutely never did.

You may not have said it, but the negative attitude you've displayed in every single post you've put into this thread certainly screams it in volumes. Just makes me glad that it's not the whiny pessimists who make this game better than its competitors, but the optimists who can take fascinating--sometimes even different ideas--and put them into the game.

[Zarabeth]

Thanks! I did have another concept for a caster tank, but Green Mage has a bit of difficulty differentiating itself thematically with what we have for White Mage in FFXIV. I am curious though as to why you think a shapeshifter wouldn't fit into the lore, especially since lore can usually be curbed so some concepts could be implemented.

I suppose you're right, they could make one, I just don't think shapeshifter when I think FF. In ffxi blue mages could tank some. I'd love to see a blue mage tank.