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  1. #1
    Player
    Shippuu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    628
    Character
    Shippuu Nammuu
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    The itemization alone makes this job problematic. Your solution of them simply adding a new type of gear because it's "easiest for you" is actually the hardest for them. It pollutes the loot pools unnecessarily for a single job for zero reason except that you want them to wear robes. Your other solution to have them wear dps gear, misses the itemization issues of sub stats showing you lack the foresight to see those major complications especially now that we have tank and dps specific sub stats that are only found natively on their respective role's gear. This creates a balancing nightmare that isn't easily solved without straight up ignoring sub stats which is a big part of this game's gear treadmill.

    On top of that, the concept of a tank that deals purely magic damage is another problem. Outside or being much harder to balance damage wise with the other tanks due to inherent weaker magic resistance in most enemies, it also creates problems in content where enemies or bosses reflect or are immune to magic damage. You now have a tank that takes extra damage in fights like leviathan extreme, or that cannot tank some bosses such as the one in void ark depending on which one because immune to magic.

    This is just trying to be different for the sake of being different for pretty much no reason. It may be appealing to people who like casters, but is a concept that generally isn't desired for the community who plays tanks. Combined with the incompatibility of gear and other issues, this would be a less desireable tank for anyone to play. Why gear just one tank when you can gear 3? There's many reasons the tanks all share gear and future ones will continue to do so as well.
    (2)
    Last edited by Shippuu; 07-28-2017 at 09:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Kazrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    1,464
    Character
    Nonni Brilante
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Shippuu View Post
    -snip-
    By that loot pool logic, we shouldn't have DRG. Or NIN. Or any melee in Heavensward since each one of them had exclusive gear, so that's not really an excuse. As for an option to use DPS gear, have a starting trait put in that increases Vitality and defenses while increasing Tenacity by an amount equal to Direct Hit gained from gear and adjust potencies to compensate for the increased damage caused by dealing magic damage. Other features can be balanced passively, so it's not really that much of a nightmare for balancing.

    As for a tank dealing magic damage, we now already have two of those, which tells me that not only would mechanics revolving around opposing magic damage not be as big of a thing, but devs would probably know how to implement them in such a way that that sort of mechanic would not apply to any job in a tank role and could potentially retroactively adjust what fights have these mechanics accordingly should there be enough demand for it. Of course if devs happen to be as inept as you seem to imply them to be (which I definitely don't), that's why I included the third option of Striking gear, have a trait that readjusts stats accordingly, and even have them deal physical damage if necessary.

    With the whole "being different" thing, look at SAM. Everyone was expecting it to be just like the armored tank of FFXI, but Yoshi decided to have SAM as something different, and despite the whining and moaning at first, people enjoy it now. Yoshi has even reinforced this by bringing up wanting to add jobs unique to the Final Fantasy series because he wants the game to be different. Sure, there might be more tanks that use Fending gear like all the others, but there could just as easily be a tank that breaks that rule, much like a DPS that can heal.

    Lastly, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you speak on behalf of all tanks (which I still can't stop laughing at the thought of it). If what you say is true and more caster players would favor it than tank players, then guess what? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!! What better way to make tanking more inclusive than to bring in a tank that more DPS players would prefer than tank players? Keep your Warriors. Keep your other tin cans. I'll stick to being different.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    Shippuu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    628
    Character
    Shippuu Nammuu
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazrah View Post
    By that loot pool logic, we shouldn't have DRG.* Or NIN.* Or any melee in Heavensward since each one of them had exclusive gear, so that's not really an excuse.
    Except that's not how it works and you know it. DPS jobs having their own individual gear worked at 2.0's launch partially because it was a holdover from 1.0's days. Those jobs have their own tier of gear because they must and are staples of either FF games, or Fantasy RPGs. Ninja follows the same way, as claimed by yoshida was a rogue class staple that he felt was necessary to any successful fantasy game/setting. There's also the likelihood of a longer term plan that intends for NIN to share gear with a future job (Dancer comes to mind) so that it remaining it's own set may simply be temporary, we don't know.

    Most of the jobs added since then could have easily had their own tier of gear, samurai, red mage, etc. But they don't because from a developmental standpoint it's a bad idea. They have enough problems creating the art assets alone as they re-use the designs for every set of gear and that's with a tremendous amount of gear sharing. It's more work for the devs and more of a pain for the players as the loot pool would become ever more polluted.

    As for an option to use DPS gear, have a starting trait put in that increases Vitality and defenses while increasing Tenacity by an amount equal to Direct Hit gained from gear and adjust potencies to compensate for the increased damage caused by dealing magic damage.* Other features can be balanced passively, so it's not really that much of a nightmare for balancing.
    It absolutely is not that easy. You can't just handwave it away saying a passive would cover everything because these stats aren't always static uncreases. That's not even touching the complication of looking at gear that shows direct hit but when worn on a tank it's actually being converted to tenacity. The skills have different stat weights and it could seriously cause other issues such as when it comes to melding. From a coding perspective it's preposterous to demand such extra hidden systems to be developed for a single job for literally no reason when they can simply be developed to wear appropriate gear.

    This can also create terrible balancing issues if the job shares gear with a dps, as adjusting one stat for a tank can buff or nerf the dps side too much. That's not even talking about the asinine notion of a tank having to compete with dps for equipment in all content.

    As for a tank dealing magic damage, we now already have two of those,
    There's a huge difference between a job that deals SOME magic damage, and a job that deals ONLY magic damage. DRK is already at a disadvantage in the situations I mentioned, but they're still capable of fulfilling their role adequately because their main form of damage and enmity is not hindered.

    Glad you pointed out we have 2 magic themed tanks already, showing the redundancy of creating yet another one.



    which tells me that not only would mechanics revolving around opposing magic damage not be as big of a thing, but devs would probably know how to implement them in such a way that that sort of mechanic would not apply to any job in a tank role and could potentially retroactively adjust what fights have these mechanics accordingly should there be enough demand for it.
    And there it is, the need for special exceptions. At that point, the tank isn't dealing magic damage then, they're dealing special kind of damage that only they can do, at which point there is zero reason for them to not simply do the same type of damage the existing tanks do. Special damage and exceptions makes for harder balancing which they already clearly have problems with.


    Of course if devs happen to be as inept as you seem to imply them to be (which I definitely don't),
    You can be optimistic all you want but they're still humans who have very busy work schedules. Their choices with tank balancing for 4.0 have been incredibly questionable and there is no denying it.


    With the whole "being different" thing, look at SAM. Everyone was expecting it to be just like the armored tank of FFXI, but Yoshi decided to have SAM as something different, and despite the whining and moaning at first, people enjoy it now.*
    Oh look, now who's speaking on the behalf of a demographic? Irony.



    but there could just as easily be a tank that breaks that rule, much like a DPS that can heal.
    As we established, no, it is not something that is easy and comes with many, many, many complications. At least the way you're trying to put forward.

    If what you say is true and more caster players would favor it than tank players, then guess what?
    Dude, listen to what you're saying. The demographics just aren't there. Tank player retention is arguably more important than trying to lure new players into the role. You'd be taking a massive gamble that simply isn't worth it. Only if the entire caster population switched to it would it then be worth it, or even half, but that's not going to happen. Realistically you can't force people to play roles they don't like. Even then, the larger dps demographic is still melee dps and even your mage tank still has melee combos. There's more to caster players than just wanting to do magic damage and wearing a robe, it's the playstyle of having actual cast bars which doesn't work all that well for a tank and is already covered by paladin.
    (1)
    Last edited by Shippuu; 07-28-2017 at 03:58 AM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,830
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shippuu View Post
    Except that's not how it works and you know it. DPS jobs having their own individual gear worked at 2.0's launch partially because it was a holdover from 1.0's days.
    Pre-yoshida 1.x actually had far more gear overlap than 2.0. Perhaps we could trim a fair bit of inventory bloat by moving back towards that, in fact, especially if paired with the below [job-dependent gear stats]...

    That's not even touching the complication of looking at gear that shows direct hit but when worn on a tank it's actually being converted to tenacity.

    This can also create terrible balancing issues if the job shares gear with a dps, as adjusting one stat for a tank can buff or nerf the dps side too much. That's not even talking about the asinine notion of a tank having to compete with dps for equipment in all content.
    Complicated? What? It's an tag/index, the stats attached to which could be made dependent on the equipping class, e.g. item12312a, item12312b. You can adjust how it works for the tank equipping it without touching how it works for the DPS equipping it whatsoever. This is done frequently in other MMOs.

    ...Granted, just because every other MMO is capable of, say, swimming without needing a brief zone transition on every dive/surface, isn't to say that XIV's devs are likewise capable, but this too is in a few too many MMOs to call "impossible" (you know, like having glamours in PvP was theoretically "impossible" until a whole two patches later...).

    Just my nit-pick, as I actually think that the benefits of such a system would already extend well beyond a single new job's use. Agreed on all other points.
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