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  1. #1
    Player
    Kazrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    1,464
    Character
    Nonni Brilante
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60

    How a Shapeshifter Could Work in FFXIV

    Everyone enjoying those lovely DPS queues? At least they've normalized a bit....sorta....well at least there are other things to do....maybe....hopefully....

    Anyway, while sitting around during those lengthier queues, I got bored and came up with this concept: a perpetually desired role (tank) with a personal favorite theme of shapeshifting, made with the same ORMOA system I've used for every job concept I've made.

    As with all the other job concepts, there's lots of text and there won't be any TL;DR version, so those of you who do take the time to read it, 1) thank you, and 2) grab a bite or something since some bits are substantially longer than the rest. Also like the other times, each section is in spoiler text for reading convenience.

    Without further ado, I give you the Sorcerer.


    Origin
    The Origin refers to the story components of the job within the game in the forms of background lore and the story told through the job questline. This is effectively the job's reason to exist within the world of the game, and without this element, there would be no point to its inception. The "short" story presented here provides a possible means of establishing Sorcerer into storylines already established into the game.

    The Hunt for “The Sharlayan Monster”

    The story starts with a Wood Wailer in Gridania speaking of concerning reports regarding an unusual monster sighted in various locations throughout the Central Shroud and that the Warrior of Light's assistance in investigating the matter would be greatly appreciated, starting with speaking to residents of Bentbranch Meadows for more information.

    After talking to a handful of villagers, the player receives what sound more like rumors surrounding this creature: “I heard it was nearly three yalms tall and feasts the largest creatures in the wood”, “I recall hearing from a friend about an experiment in Sharlayan gone horribly wrong”, statements along these lines. The last person spoken to though, in addition to another would-be rumor, also mentions that one of the residents has yet to return from their daily hunting expedition, requesting the aid of the Warrior of Light to find them.

    Heading northwest of Bentbranch Meadows, the missing hunter is found surrounded by a pack of monsters. When the player defeats the monsters and speaks with the hunter, they warn that more are coming. A cutscene would then follow showing more of the same monsters encroaching on the hunter and the Warrior of Light only to be interrupted by an unusual sound followed by a yeti charging in, knocking some of the monsters aside and making quick work of what ones were unable to flee. A moment after this, a puff of smoke goes off around the yeti as it disappears, revealing an oddly robed figure who pauses, briefly panics, transforms into a spriggan and hastily scampers toward the Standing Corses.

    Once the Warrior of Light enters the cave in the Standing Corses and starts searching, a young man's voice is heard: “Are....are you here to kill me? Like all the others?” The Warrior of Light shakes their head (maybe some lip flapping would be involved), and the robed figure steps out toward a more lit area of the cave, removing their hood to reveal themselves as a adolescent male hyur. The young man introduces himself as Lanrich Seward, a student of sorcery, which according to him is “the art of embodying great beasts” that was recently deemed forbidden in his homeland of Sharlayan. Lanrich also goes on to explain the reasons as to why he is in Gridania, including sorcery necessities, sanctuary as an exile and also to search for a tome written by his grandsire said to contain advanced knowledge of sorcery. As soon as the player agrees to help, Lanrich gives the Warrior of Light a soul crystal he claims to be his grandsire's and a chest of secondhand gear that could help in the search.

    Research, Train, Research....

    Throughout the starting quests, Lanrich teaches the art of shifting and how “in order to become the creature, you must first know the creature”. In addition, the end of each new quest would give a clue as to the whereabouts of the elusive tome Lanrich is looking for.

    The end of the starting questline would lead to the finding of the tome, albeit in a heavily guarded area.

    The Bestiary of Ranimus Seward

    What would be considered the “current” questline for Sorcerer would involve protecting both Lanrich and the tome from Sharlayan envoys attempting to make a claim on bounties for Lanrich as a traitor to his homeland and the tome for property stolen from the nation of Sharlayan.

    The story would also involve excerpts from the tome, ranging from the zoological research endeavors of Lanrich's grandsire to his perspective on sorcery, why he believed it should be banned from practice in Sharlayan, where it should be practiced, why it should still be practiced and why some creatures should not have their forms assumed by sorcery.

    Painting on the Wall

    Any future questlines would delve into the origins of sorcery and archaic forms, most of which being unknown even to Lanrich.


    Role
    The role of Sorcerer will be a tank because 1) of course we need a new one, and 2) this role seemed like the best excuse for a shapeshifter that could have a wider variety of forms without making it too overly complicated.


    Mechanics
    The goal here is to provide a simpler overview of how this job works than going straight to the Abilities section and saying “what the &#@% is he on about?”. Here are some of the basic features.

    True Caster Tank

    Oh yeah, this isn't some tin can with magic tricks. This is the real deal. An actual spellcaster--cloth and all--dealing exclusively magic damage and taking all those hits just like any other tank.

    ”But won't it be super squishy because it's not in heavy armor like those other tanks?”

    No it won't Captain Whinypants, because this job will have both the gear and the skills needed to not just be as tough as every other tank, but to feel as tough as every other tank too.

    Instinct

    Ever wonder how an evasion tank would work in a game while being balanced? By making it only look like it's evading, and the Instinct buff would do just that.

    The goal of this ability is to use periodic shielding at the expense of MP to help in the compensation for wearing lighter armor to tank with. This would allow for a sort of mechanical illusion of an evasion tank while making it easy to balance as well as being less of a burden on healers having panic attacks after seeing not a lot of damage and then one or two quick damage spikes that would happen with healing a real evasion tank.

    The numbers listed for the ability are placeholders for now. I didn't feel like doing too much more math on those, but mostly just wanted something to give an idea as to how it would work.

    The Resolve and Fury Gauges

    So with every job now having their own shiny new job gauge, this job would be no different. For Sorcerer, its fancy UI toys would be the Resolve and Fury Gauges: a pair of generic animal paw prints, with the Resolve Gauge on the left and the Fury Gauge on the right.

    When the Sorcerer performs a weapon combo, one of these paw prints will light up depending on which combo was used. When the Sorcerer performs their enmity combo, the Resolve Gauge on the left will turn yellow and marked as “Level 1”, and when they perform their damage combo, the Fury Gauge will turn red and marked as “Level 1”. Each time afterward that a combo is used, its corresponding paw print on the Beast Gauge will get bigger, up to a maximum size at “Level 2” at 52 and “Level 3” at 62.

    Beast Gauges are used for Shift spells, which is explained below. Just keep reading, you won't miss it.

    Shifting

    Sorcerer will receive three combat-oriented “Shift” spells: Resolve Shift, Fury Shift and Wild Shift. Casting either Resolve Shift or Fury Shift will deplete its respective gauge and transform the Sorcerer into a monster for a brief period of time, with the type of monster dependent on the level of the gauge used upon using casting the corresponding Shift spell. Wild Shift will consume both gauges and its effects are determined the lowest of the two gauges.

    Unlike transformation effects from previous content (i.e. Palace of the Dead), Sorcerer transformations are temporary buffs and do not replace any of your hotbars or abilities, so normal weaponskills and abilities can be used, and Beast Gauge levels can still be accumulated while shifted.

    With that being said, no Shift spell can be cast while under the effect of a transformation effect, and all combat-oriented Shift spells will have cast times--don't worry, they'll be just short enough to cover for a wrong button.

    The Forms

    So the forms I have selected are more or less spitballed to give an idea as to what kind of form should be at what transformation levels. Many of these forms would probably be (some would definitely be) smaller than the counterparts they are inspired by for mechanical purposes, and a lore-based reason would also be provided in the job story.

    The only three rules I had for picking beast forms were nothing humanoid (i.e. gigas, moogles or other beast tribes), no plant creatures (this would be explained in the job story) and no dinosaurs or dragons (which would also be explained in the job story).


    Outfitting
    Outfitting is simply the gear and core stat preference. Due to the um....”nature” of this job, unless tank accessories are converted back to their pre-4.05 state for a more universal solution to tank threat, a new accessory type would be needed. Vitality with Intelligence rather than Strength as a sub stat (most likely dubbed “Warding” gear) would be required.

    For armor, we'd have three options:

    1) The “current gear” option: Use of Casting gear with a starting trait increasing Vitality, Defense and Magic Defense to compensate for the stat difference between it and Fending gear.
    2) The “new gear” option: Use of the new accessory type to create a new armor type that would accommodate for a spellcaster tank. To keep things easier (at least for me), this is the option I'll go with for now.
    3) The “not-that-caster-esque” option: Use of Striking gear with a starting trait increasing Vitality, Defense and Magic Defense to compensate for the stat difference between it and Fending gear. This would put Strength as the main power stat, allowing the use of Fending accessories and otherwise providing the most minimal development effort at the expense of going against the "caster tank" theme and probably some irritated Monk and Samurai players upset over yet another job rolling on their gear.

    Any relic armor associated with the job would be more on the wild side ( /badpun), having a greater amount of furs adorned with various types of animal claws and teeth.

    The weapon of choice for the Sorcerer is the beast soul: a glowing, fist-sized orb that floats between the character's hands when drawn. When sheathed, it would just look like a normal glass orb at the character's hip, either by itself or in some sort of satchel. When the Sorcerer is under any Shift effect, the orb will not be present.

    Relic weapons for Sorcerer would most likely be named after various mythical beasts.


    Abilities
    First off, neither the abilities nor their values are set in stone. This list of abilities is to mainly provide some idea as to the basic combat functions of Sorcerer and getting an idea of how it would fight. Unlike the other job concepts I've posted on the forums, this is a full list of traits and abilities, all listed in order of level gained up to the current level cap of 70 with descriptions and extra comments added as needed.

    Actions

    1) Press Strike (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast, 60 TP)
    Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 140.
    (Beast soul launched forward toward the target and back into the caster's hands. While in a Shifted form, this would look like a headbutt.)

    4) Natural Ire (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast, 60 TP)
    Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
    Additional Effect: Increased enmity
    Combo Action: Press Strike
    Combo Potency: 200
    (Beast soul swung in an diagonal upward arc. In a Shifted form, this would be a diagonal upward arc with either claws, horn, tusk, etc.)

    6) Roar (Spell, 5y radius, instant, 2.5s recast, 11% base MP)
    Deals unaspected damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 110.
    Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
    (The caster emotes a roaring motion with a spell effect (and maybe even sound effect) of the bull roar. This animation would not change for Shifted forms.)

    10) Spirit Tear (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recaset, 60 TP)
    Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
    Combo Action: Press Strike
    Combo Potency: 210
    Combo Bonus Effect: Restores MP
    (Beast soul swung horizontally, briefly creating a white claw mark in front of the caster. Mechanically, this would restore 12% of base MP. In Shifted forms, this would be a horizontal slash with claws, horns, tusks, etc.)

    15) Ghost Claw (Spell, 15y range, instant, 2.5s recause, 5% base MP)
    Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
    Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
    (Beast soul thrown at the target, briefly creating a slash mark. While shifted, this would be a similar animation for animals with claws or rearing the head up for animals without claws.)

    18) Scouting Shift (Ability, instant, 5s recast)
    Transforms the caster into a Scouting Form, increasing movement speed. This ability is canceled upon entering combat.
    Duration: 30s
    (So the plan for this would be a Spriggan, but it could be any small, less threatening animal-like monster.)

    26) Seething Anger (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast)
    Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
    Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
    Combo Action: Natural Ire
    Combo Potency: 250
    Combo Bonus Effect: Increases Resolve level by 1
    (Beast soul swung upward, looping around the caster to strike the target twice. If used in a combo, the attack would briefly leave a minute amount of smoke. For Shifted forms, this would be an upward strike with claws, horns, tusks, etc.)

    30) Aggression (Ability, instant, 10s recast, 18% of base MP)
    Increases maximum HP by 10% and enmity generated. Reduces damage taken by 10% and damage dealt by 20%. Lasts until cancelled.
    (The caster stamps their foot, cracking the ground beneath them. While in this stance, the Resolve and Fury gauges would appear steaming.)

    30) Resolve Shift (Spell, 1.5s cast, 2.5s recast)
    Consumes current Resolve level to transform the caster into a resilient monster based on the Resolve level consumed.
    Level 1: Scarab
    Level 2: Crab
    Level 3: Mammoth
    (The caster gains a yellow aura before a puff of smoke goes off with a successful cast as the caster becomes the animal. A puff of smoke would appear upon the form ending.)

    35) Gift of the Wendigo (Ability, instant, 80s recast)
    All attacks restore MP and heal the caster for 10% of all damage dealt.
    Duration: 20s
    (A blue aura would briefly emanate from the caster's hands and beast soul. Mechanically, each attack would restore 5% of base MP. In Shifted form, the aura would appear from the animal's claws, horns, tusks, etc.)

    38) Revenant Slam (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 2.5s recast)
    Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100.
    Combo Action: Spirit Tear
    Combo Potency: 300
    Combo Bonus Effect: Increases Fury level by 1
    (Beast soul swung downward. For Shifted forms, this would be a downward strike with claws, horns, tusks, etc.)

    40) Fury Shift (Spell, 1.5s cast, 2.5s recast)
    Consumes current Fury level to transform the caster into a powerful monster based on the Fury level consumed.
    Level 1 : Crow
    Level 2: Tiger
    Level 3: Predator
    (The caster gains a reddish aura before a puff of smoke goes off with a successful cast as the caster becomes the animal. A puff of smoke would appear upon the form ending.)

    42) Instinct (Ability, instant, 5s recast)
    Periodically create a shield absorbing 5% of maximum HP. This ability drains MP while active. Lasts until canceled.
    (A pair of white beast eyes open up over the caster's head before disappearing. Mechanically, this would be 5% damage absorption at the expense of 17.5% of base MP drained every three seconds.)

    45) Collapse (Ability, instant, 90s recast)
    Inflicts damage with a potency of 150. Damage is doubled while under the effect of a Shift spell.
    (A downward strike with the entire upper body regardless of form.)

    46) Shell Shield (Ability, instant, 180s recast)
    Reduces all damage taken by 30%.
    (The caster quickly crouches down as a glowing green tortoise shell forms around them and disappears when the caster gets up immediately afterward.)

    50) Survival of the Fittest (Ability, instant, 360s recast)
    Restores all HP and MP.
    (The caster roars, arms outstretched with the beast soul over the caster's head. For non-bipedal Shifted forms, the animal would rear up on its hind legs instead.)

    52) Stampede (Ability, instant, 15y range, 60s recast)
    Charge 15y forward, dealing unaspected damage with a potency of 200 to all enemies in the path.
    (The caster moves foward, leaving a trail of dust in the path to show the area of effect.)

    54) Swiping Blows (Ability, instant, 45s recast)
    All weaponskills strike an additional target for 30% damage.
    Duration: 10s
    (A pair of outward slash marks would appear in front of the caster.)

    56) Deft Counter (Ability, instant, 3y range, 5s duration, 60s recast)
    Evade the next physical attack. If the attacker is nearby, damage is dealt to them with a potency of 150.
    (The caster's outline becomes hazy for a second. If the attacker is in melee range,
    the caster lurches left and strikes to their right regardless of form.)


    58) Revitalize (Spell, instant, 30s recast, 25% of base MP)
    Restores the caster's HP over time.
    Regen Potency: 300
    Duration: 12s
    (The caster visibly takes a deep breath, quickly shaking their head. This animation would be the same for all forms.)

    60) Adaptation (Ability, instant, 180s recast)
    Increase damage dealt by 3% and reduce damage taken by 3%. Each time the caster deals damage, damage dealt is increased by an additional 3% up to a maximum of 15%. Each time the caster takes damage, damage taken is reduced by an additional 3% up to a maximum of 15%.
    Duration: 20s
    (The caster briefly rears back regardless of form as it gains a faint green aura, which lasts for the duration of the ability.)

    62) Stomp Smash (Weaponskill, 10y range, 10y radius, instant, 20s recast)
    Inflicts damage to all enemies in a cone in front of the caster with a potency of 350. Can only be used under the effect of Resolve Shift or Wild Shift and removes the effect. Shares a recast timer with Beatdown.
    (The caster leaps up a bit and slams hard onto the ground, briefly leaving cracks in the ground in front of the caster and smoke around the caster as they exit their shifted form. The reason why it shares a cooldown with Beatdown is that it would be the easiest means of combating a possible rotation glitch during Wild Shift.)

    64) Beatdown (Weaponskill, 3y range, instant, 20s recast)
    Inflicts damage with a potency of 450. Can only be used under the effect of Fury Shift or Wild Shift and removes the effect. Shares a recast timer with Stomp Smash.
    (The caster repeatedly strikes downward with the last hit creating a shockwave and smoke as the caster exits their shifted form. Like partially stated, the reason why this shares a cooldown with Stomp Smash is that it would be the easiest means of combating a possible rotation glitch during Wild Shift.)

    68) Savagery (Ability, instant, 90s recast)
    Increases Resolve and Fury levels to 3.
    (The caster appears to tense up regardless of form as fanged maw appears in front of them and opens up before disappearing.)

    70) Wild Shift (Spell, 1.5s cast, 120s recast)
    Consumes Resolve and Fury levels to transform the caster into a dangerous monster based on the lowest of the two levels consumed.
    Level 1: Ape
    Level 2: Yeti
    Level 3: Behemoth
    (The caster gains an orange aura before a puff of smoke goes off with a successful cast as the caster becomes the animal. A puff of smoke would appear upon the form ending.)

    Resolve Shift: Scarab
    Activated upon consuming a Resolve Gauge Level of 1. Reduces damage taken by 5%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (This would look just like any other beetle in the game and around the same size as well.)

    Fury Shift: Crow
    Activated upon consuming a Fury Gauge Level of 1. Reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (So I couldn't think of any better name for it, but the visual goal would be a black version of the Bi Fang birds in Yanxia that would be around the height of an average Miqo'te.)

    Resolve Shift: Crab
    Activated upon consuming a Resolve Gauge Level of 2. Reduces damage taken by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (This would look just like any of the red crabs south of Costa del Sol, but around the size of the adamantoise mount, if not slightly smaller.)

    Fury Shift: Tiger
    Activated upon consuming a Fury Gauge Level of 2. Reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (Go find a tiger model. That's pretty much what it'll look like.)

    Resolve Shift: Mammoth
    Activated upon consuming a Resolve Gauge of 3. Reduces damage taken by 10% and increases maximum HP by 10%, restoring the amount of health increased. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (This might probably be a baby mammoth, and would be no taller than the tallest male Au'ra.)

    Fury Shift: Predator
    Activated upon consuming a Fury Gauge Level of 3. Reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. Chance to critically strike increased by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (As tempting as it was to call it "Weasel Form", it felt better to give it a name that more suitably matched how threatening it would be. This would be the same model as the Doman Weasel or Gulo Gulo, and would be roughly the same size or smaller than the current models.)

    Wild Shift: Ape
    Activated upon consuming both Resolve and Fury gauges each with a minimum level of 1. Reduces damage taken by 5% and reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 10%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (As odd as it'd seem to have a Level 1 Wild Shift for a cooldown-based shift, it still felt necessary to have it as a failsafe. Think of it and the Level 2 Wild Shift like the Hyoton of shifts: there's not really much reason to use it, but they're there just in case.
    As for looks, it'll be just like any gorilla model about the size of a Roegadyn.)


    Wild Shift: Yeti
    Activated upon consuming both Resolve and Fury gauges each with a minimum level of 2. Reduces damage taken by 10% and reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (Same thing with the Hyoton analogy. This would look like any other Yeti model about a head above the tallest male Au'ra or Elezen.)

    Wild Shift: Behemoth
    Activated upon consuming both Resolve and Fury gauges each with a minimum level of 3. Reduces damage taken by 10% and reduces weaponskill cast and recast time and auto-attack delay by 20%. Increase chance to critically strike by 10% and maximum HP by 10%, restoring the amount of health increased. No other Shift spells can be cast during the duration of this effect.
    Duration: 20s
    (I'm not gonna lie, even I'm still on the fence about this one, but I still wanted this Level 3 Wild Shift to be something legendary, something worth shifting into. For the size perspective, it would definitely be smaller than the Behemoth mount with a goal of having its hitbox size being slightly smaller than that of Demi-bahamut. Also because of its oblong size, its rear end might stick out of that hitbox a bit, but that shouldn't be too big of a deal.)

    Traits

    20) Enhanced Vitality
    Increase vitality by 8.

    40) Enhanced Vitality II
    Increase vitality by 16.

    52) Enhanced Shifting
    Increase the maximum level for Resolve and Fury to 2.

    60) Enhanced Vitality III
    Increase vitality by 24.

    62) Enhanced Shifting II
    Increase the maximum level for Resolve and Fury to 3.

    66) Enhanced Swiping Blows
    Swiping Blows now hits a third target for 30% of the damage dealt to the original target.


    LIMIT BREAK – Protection of the Wild

    Cast visual: The Sorcerer channels a powerful shift as all party members are surrounded by glowing, translucent tortoise shells.
    End visual: The Sorcerer briefly shifts into a massive Adamantoise and creates a shell-like barricade before shifting back to their previous form.
    (7)

  2. #2
    Player
    Capriana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
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    83
    Character
    Capriana Waterfall
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 70
    I am happy for you and your creativity. Its nice to be this excited about something.

    But please for the LOVE of GOD. No freaking shapeshifter in FFXIV. JUST NO! STOP!

    I liked your bluemage, your dancer or whatever but god shapeshifter, JUST NO! ESPECIALLY AS A TANK. HATE MAGE TANKS. HATE is not even a strong word here.
    (2)
    PLEASE USE MY RECRUITMENT CODE: EMS22V2M

  3. #3
    Player
    Kazrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    1,464
    Character
    Nonni Brilante
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Capriana View Post
    I am happy for you and your creativity. Its nice to be this excited about something.

    But please for the LOVE of GOD. No freaking shapeshifter in FFXIV. JUST NO! STOP!

    I liked your bluemage, your dancer or whatever but god shapeshifter, JUST NO! ESPECIALLY AS A TANK. HATE MAGE TANKS. HATE is not even a strong word here.
    Thanks for the compliments, but why so opposed to those two themes?
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player
    TankHunter678's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    873
    Character
    Selena Zensh
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazrah View Post
    Thanks for the compliments, but why so opposed to those two themes?
    I hear shapeshifter and I think druid to be honest. Sorcery and the title of Sorcerer is more along the lines of Black Mage, White Mage, and Red Mage, and maybe dealing with voidsent rather then anything in the realm of shapeshifting like a druid in touch with nature and the inner beast.

    As for mage tanks, in general its a conflict of themes. Mages are always known to be thin brittle robe wearers, the polar opposite of tanks which are known for being bulky tough armor wearers. Sorcerer especially invokes the robe wearing bookish type that is not physically fit for the rigors tanking requires.
    (4)

  5. #5
    Player
    kikix12's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
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    953
    Character
    Seraphitia Faro
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 80
    Mages are not always known for being brittle. Quite the opposite. There are many stories where they leave typical "tanks" in the dust. It's just that for some reason, most games ignore those stories.

    Who makes use of barriers, knights or mages?! What's stronger, a very much destructible metal armor or a potentially indestructible magical barrier?!

    Look at the prime RPG game, Dungeons and Dragons. Are mages squishy there themselves?! Yes. Except clerics which are almost as tanky as warriors, and even tankier than them when you factor in their healing. But what about mages?! They are squishy, but as levels go, they gain access to force kind of spells that are virtually indestructible (only other mages with only limited few spells can destroy force). Only a caster can stop a dragons breath from turning the party into a fried chicken substitute. That's why mages had to be held back by limited casts of their spells in 3.X and lower.

    Look at Magi manga, where mages are surrounded by "Borg", a kind of forcefield, just because they are mages, making an adept tougher than your veteran warrior. The titular Magi are outright impossible to defeat for normal warriors.
    Look at Harry Potter, a very liked story, where the casters throw barriers to stop attacks that should have killed any normal human.
    And Gandalf fighting against Balrog (or Balrok?! well, one of these)? Could Gimli or Aragorn stop him even for a second? Fighting in a war on the front lines? Saruman and Sauron both were magical entities as well, and Sauron could not be defeated without destroying the one ring, which itself was completely indestructible outside of a very specific, single volcano right at the very middle of Saurons territory.


    If you look at fiction, there are PLENTY examples of tough mages. Mages that cover their bodies with earth forming a tough, regenerating armor. Mages in bubbles of hardened water (and fun fact, at high enough pressure water is harder than any concrete, metal or even diamond). Mages in spheres of forcefields.

    In non-game fiction, mages are most often shown as being able to withstand a lot more beating than non-mages. So your statement is entirely incorrect. There is absolutely zero conflict of themes.
    (6)
    Last edited by kikix12; 07-27-2017 at 05:48 PM.

  6. #6
    Player
    TankHunter678's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    873
    Character
    Selena Zensh
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by kikix12 View Post
    -snip-
    In general Magic Knights, Paladins/Templar, etc are the ones depicted as the merging of the durable melee fighter and caster types. Lacking in the potential strength of both sides unless they specialize. Like Paladins do as anti-undead/demon wielding holy magic in addition to their blessed equipment for dealing with undead/demons.

    Also a big flaw in the ones you bring up is that the setting needs to have no forms of anti-magic in order for the mages to surpass physical warrior types. Saruman for instance would be helpless against a warrior outfitted in anti-magic gear outside of trying to levitate objects to throw at the guy, if he lived through figuring that out.

    Any setting where anti-magic is a regular and common thing, especially for policing mages? The mages are brittle and have to pick their fights carefully lest they get crushed by their more physical oriented enemies.

    There is also the fact that when magic is in the setting mage superiority over physical opponents only really works as long as the physical opponent lacks enchantments. A fire mage trying to take on a warrior decked out in anti-fire gear is going to get crushed easily becaue that warrior can face tank a dragon's breath attack without need of a barrier. Which is also typically how dragons die in many fantasy stories.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    Sylvina's Avatar
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    Sylvina Eon
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    Exodus
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    Warrior Lv 90
    It's true that a powerful mage can be defeated by a sword or axe wielding warrior. but that only means they're on equal footing.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player
    kikix12's Avatar
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    Seraphitia Faro
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    Midgardsormr
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    Scholar Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by TankHunter678 View Post
    In general Magic Knights, Paladins/Templar, etc are the ones depicted as the merging of the durable melee fighter and caster types. Lacking in the potential strength of both sides unless they specialize. Like Paladins do as anti-undead/demon wielding holy magic in addition to their blessed equipment for dealing with undead/demons.
    Again, you are talking about GAMING. I said clearly that game developers tend to do it like this (but not always). But in other kind of fiction, be it novels, be it manga, american comic books (Dr. Strange is a good example here), movies...this is far from that. The question is why are game developers doing it this way?! Because they are copy-cats. When first Idle games came out and proved to be successful, everyone and their mother started developing Idle games. Same with MMO's. Developers look at what was successful and reskin it. Simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TankHunter678 View Post
    Also a big flaw in the ones you bring up is that the setting needs to have no forms of anti-magic in order for the mages to surpass physical warrior types. Saruman for instance would be helpless against a warrior outfitted in anti-magic gear outside of trying to levitate objects to throw at the guy, if he lived through figuring that out.
    You know that this is an absolute joke of an argument, right?! Tell me, what is anti-magic?! It's magic...So yeah, you need a mage to defeat a mage. How does that put the fighters in any better light?! And besides, I've almost never met a story that even used anti-magic freely. Though there were those examples. And you know what?! Those mages whose magic was beaten still did sometimes come on top. It's very obvious in the likes of Fairy Tail where about half of the mages are combat specialists and dragon slayers in particular are shown as superior melee fight combatants. But even in Harry Potter, there were anti-magic spells if I recall. And there still were mages that lost despite knowing them, cause the other side could use it too or just managed to outwit them.

    Ironically, "anti-magic" gear is also magical. And funnily enough, let's use Dungeons and Dragons as example again. You could make that gear using perpetual anti-magic field around a piece of armor. And how that ends?! A lucky Mordenkainen's Disjunction and that gear is nothing more than scrap metal. Because anti-magic is not almighty and doesn't fully affect certain spells. It doesn't affect already-cast force either, so that force barrier?! Yes. If it was there before the anti-magic field was cast, it will still be there and will still prevent the anti-magic warrior from doing a thing. I use D&D as an example heavily because it is what many RPG's were inspired by for a long time, and now, many RPG's are inspired by those RPG's. The "glass cannon" mage is theoretically born from that as well (as I said, when you take away their spells, mages ARE as tough as glass...meaning not at all). But the developers completely ignored the many defensive capabilities that mages had in a pen and paper setting of D&D.

    Oh, also, there is no anti-magic in Final Fantasy. Remember what we are even talking about here.

    Quote Originally Posted by TankHunter678 View Post
    Any setting where anti-magic is a regular and common thing, especially for policing mages? The mages are brittle and have to pick their fights carefully lest they get crushed by their more physical oriented enemies.
    Any setting where anti-magic is not a regular and common thing?! The non-mages are brittle and have to be careful who they pick a fight with. See what I did there?! You can make whatever setting you please. What's the problem of making a setting where in the presence of a mage all non-mages are turned into weaklings unable to lift a cup full of water?! Nothing. What's the problem of making a setting where MAGES lose their magic in presence of a non-mage?! Nothing (I recall an anime where a certain person lacking magic in a magical world was also fully immune to all magic as a result). But how does that affect the theme conflict?! Not at all. Because no matter what setting you do, there will be many others that will make the exact opposite, and their fiction is no less valuable than yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by TankHunter678 View Post
    There is also the fact that when magic is in the setting mage superiority over physical opponents only really works as long as the physical opponent lacks enchantments. A fire mage trying to take on a warrior decked out in anti-fire gear is going to get crushed easily becaue that warrior can face tank a dragon's breath attack without need of a barrier. Which is also typically how dragons die in many fantasy stories.
    What are you talking about?! Anti-fire gear IS an anti-fire barrier, effectively. And that warrior needs a mage/cleric/priest/whatever to cast it/enchant the gear. Effectively, mages can pass their defensive attributes to others, but physical guys cannot. MAGES are the source of those defenses, those enchantments, so it is MAGES defenses. What exactly stops the mages from doing the enchanment on their own garbs?! For example an enchantment that pushes away any metal that approaches?!

    You are trying to give validity to your claims by making very specific situations, but you are forgetting that those very specific situations are not what we are talking about here. We are talking about mages viability as tanks. Are there examples of tanking mages?! Countless ones. There's nothing that can change that.

    I know we are talking about magic and fiction all that, but let's look at real life for a bit here. You have two guys fighting in a swimming pool. One have a sword and another have technology as a magic-substitute. A nice, directional sound generator that creates a lot of loud noises. While the guy with a sword is going to be hard-pressed to do much with it due to the pressure of water making his attacks suck, the directional sound generator will turn his brain into mush. Take the fight outside, and that sound generator, commonly called "a speaker", will at best be a pain in the ass that can blow his eardrums, at worst a source of very pleasant music. It will have zero effect on his sword and his ability to attack with it though, and the "mage" will be dead, no questions asked. Now, arm the mage with a Faraday cage connected to a high voltage, and it's another story. The sword-master will die by trying to attack him out of water, but the mage will be killed by his own weapon if he'll get IN water. This change of potential based on the environment is the crucial point here. In pen and paper, you can adapt to the situation and that allows the concept to balance itself. In books, comics and the like the maker makes fixed constraints, so the adaptability is entirely based on what he wants to make. In a digital game?! Once it's set, it cannot be changed. That's why it is important to balance things thoroughly. Just so you know, there were examples of "battle mages" that did not suck at either magic or fighting in final fantasy past. Some were born from the customization of Final Fantasy Tactics, others were innate to specific classes (blue mage in tactics is pretty defensively viable if you ask me). In Final Fantasy VII everyone could be a decent mage and decent fighter, even though some were better for one or the other. In Final Fantasy VIII, the boundary was almost non-existent.


    And how is it in Final Fantasy XIV?! The "theme" is just three roles. Tanks, healers and DPS. All tanks are tanky, all healers are somewhat resistant but have increased survivability thanks to self-healing ability and all DPS are somewhat resistant either magically or physically, but only Red Mage have significantly increases sustainability due to self-healing. Yes. A "mage" is the tankiest of DPS, just because he can spam a heal to make up for being hit...There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that stops a mage-tank. Heck. The nature of MMO's makes bosses, even magical bosses, one heck of a tough nut to crack, so you have "tanky mages" since day one of V1.0. Just not playable. The setting very much allows designated tank mages.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    Chiramu's Avatar
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    Cirra Maru
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    Famfrit
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    Conjurer Lv 70
    It's a good idea, but you could take ideas from WoW Druid for this as well.
    (5)

  10. #10
    Player
    TankHunter678's Avatar
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    Selena Zensh
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    Siren
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    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by kikix12 View Post
    -snip-
    And if we look at FFXIV all casters are squishy unless they are hybridized with knights, like Paladin and Dark Knight who both have very limited magical capabilities and wear heavy armor. If we look at other FF games all dedicated casters are squishy, and even in the customizable versions all casters are squishy or speccing a character out to be a caster makes them more squishy unless hybridized to give up a sizable chunk on the caster side. Even in dungeons and dragons for a caster type to be durable they have to give up a lot on the caster side to do it.

    And the ones shown to have any decent magic barriers main story wise in FFXIV are white mages, and just look at what happened to Y'shtola when some extra force was applied. Her shield was ripped in half and she was sent to the hospital for the 4.0 main story. Gameplay wise just look at how often WHM, AST, and SCH shields get punctured.

    And by technicality dark knight is the "mage" tank. Its also considered the worst tank in the game outside of boss fights against enemies that use magic at max level.

    I wish square would just remove that 1000 character limit already.
    (0)

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