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  1. #1
    Player
    Kaedan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,891
    Character
    Kaedan Burkhardt
    World
    Atomos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ovIm View Post
    Well, lets look at the facts to answer this.

    DPS:
    WAR has the highest personal DPS, yes, but with the slashing debuff applied, all 3 tanks roughly do the same damage. So yeah, one could say in this pure metric, the tanks are balanced.
    The only thing to note here is that WAR heavily relies on his IR+Zerg burst window to keep his DPS up, missing fellcleaves results in a heavy damage penalty overall.
    DRK and PLD have more sustained DPS, and with the current raid design, WAR seems to have gotten the short end of the stick for progress groups.
    So I'd say DPS wise, WAR is currently in a bad position, despite his high personal DPS.

    Mitigation
    For single enemy fights, I see no big issue with either tank really. DRKs TBN is hella useful, PLD has shelltron and WAR can easily switch to Defiance for IB thanks to 4.05.

    In a group pull, thanks to the changes in blocking (now possible from all sides), PLD has a huge amount of passive mitigation always up, and the cooldowns to improve on that.
    Close behind this is WAR, who can easily combine his CDs to be more effective, though, the loss of bloodbath is definitely felt.
    DRK however has a very weak mitigation kit, relying a lot on TBN, which does not really help for group pulls. It has gotten a bit better with the buff to quietus, allowing you to DA-AD more often.

    Utility
    The real issue arises now. As you can see above, PLD already has a slight edge over WAR and DRK, however, nothing to severe and definitely within the scope of reason. However, WAR brings no utility for the rest of the group, and DRK only brings TBN every 15 seconds, while a PLD can cover, intervention, clemency and passage of arms to prevent damage to his teammates or heal them up if required. DRK and WAR both lost their utility (Delirium and Storms Path), and have gained nothing in return. This is severly unbalanced when acknowledging the difference in possibilities (or lack thereof) in the mitigation and DPS capabilities of the tanks, as this means there is no objective reason not to pick a PLD over one of the other two classes.

    Gameplay
    This is highly subjective, but should be considered as well. IMHO, PLD is the easiest tank to play, with 2 burst windows alternating every 30s, a clear cut rotation and steady damage. WAR and DRK seem to have a much higher skill floor that needs to be reached in order to perform close to what PLD can bring. This too should be considered when talking about balance, because as it stands now, PLD bringst the easiest gameplay, the easiest DPS, the highest mitigation and the most versatile utility kit.

    Conclusion
    There is simply no objective reason not to play paladin, and that is because the tanks are, currently, still not balanced. However, I hope square acknoledges that and pushes out fixes in 4.1, because I really, really want to see any kind of tank combination desired for any kind of fight.
    Quoting for truth. Seriously good breakdown.
    (4)

  2. #2
    Player
    Nivarea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    73
    Character
    C'lhen Madder
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Well, no. Not yet.
    PLD is head and shoulders ahead DRK and WAR. It got the best utilities, can do basically as much DPS as a WAR while being far less punishing in their burst window, and is also the best defense wise. WAR got a slightly better DPS if played optimally, but it's harder to be at a decent level, and they have no utility. DRK is the weakest tank DPS wise, and the weakest tank mitigation wise. Their redeeming grace is TBN, which while being good is not that strong. Omega also got many magic damages, which explain why they're not that bad, but on physical fights, DRK is really gutted.

    We can't say tanks are balanced if one Tank is better at everything. It was the same in HW with WAR. The only thing keeping people to run two PLD right now is the LB penalty.
    (12)

  3. #3
    Player
    Dezee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    29
    Character
    Dezee Redwolf
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    FallenShadows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    9
    Character
    Fallen Shadows
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    My opinion is... its really, really close, but not QUITE there. The problem with War is its skillcap/effort put into its dps rotation is disgustingly high compared to the other two (and very easily screwed over by mechanics), and for this reason along with lack of utility, they should ideally be the highest dps of the 3 (not by much, but by like ~200-300 dps). Drk needs a bit more damage to be a little closer to War (they bring slight utility and their damage is significantly easier to apply in raid settings) and Pld should sit on the lower end as its utility is highest (again, not by much).

    Alternatively, give all 3 tanks some unique utility buffs (like Pld mitigation for Passage of Arms, War gives group HP/healing, Drk gives group shielding) and put all the tanks' damage/skillcaps in a similar spot. Which would probably result in tanking being a bit more boring due to war skillcap lowered rather than pld/drk skillcap raised.
    (2)

  5. #5
    Player
    Lumadurin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    66
    Character
    Chiseled Penguin
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by MyaValentine View Post
    As it stands WAR are back to top self DPS king
    On WHAT planet?
    It's like a 5% difference and yet they bring absolutely NONE of the utility.
    Also, WAR can't MT AND do damage in savage at all unless you want to give your healers headaches, because the vast majority of their damage can only be achieved in DPS stance. About 30-45% of their damage comes from Fell Cleave.
    Plus, the bulk of their damage is funneled into their Berserk windows. Meaning you get punished extremely hard if mechanics require you to move away from the boss, or if you fumble an input.
    (5)
    Last edited by Lumadurin; 07-26-2017 at 06:11 AM.

  6. #6
    Player MyaValentine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Gilgamesh
    Posts
    353
    Character
    Diana Prince
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumadurin View Post
    On WHAT planet?
    In planet earth my friend WAR currently has the highest self DPS of the 3 PLD and DRK get a boost with slaying Dbuff from PT which makes them to equal or slightly more dmg, and yeah they are more punishing and requires more "skill" to pull off. which is why most people agree it needs either more damage or pld needs a dmg nerf. But if you put all 3 tanks on a dummy tanks does more damage than the other 2. I think there was a threat about it around here you can use as source.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    Lumadurin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    66
    Character
    Chiseled Penguin
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by MyaValentine View Post
    IBut if you put all 3 tanks on a dummy tanks does more damage than the other 2.
    Dummies don't have mechanics that can interrupt your rotations.

    The only thing that WAR leads in currently is that it has arguably the best personal cooldown spread of the three tanks.
    • 20% mitigation on a 90s CD. (Rampart - Universal)
    • 20% more healing on a 120s CD. (Convalescence - Universal)
    • 20% max HP on a 120s CD. (Thrill of Battle)
    • 30% mitigation + 50 potency retaliation on 120s CD (Vengance)
    • 20% physical mitigation on 90s CD (Raw Intuition - goes extremely well with Awareness)
    • "Panic Button" (Holmgang) on 180s CD, so it can be used more than once per fight.
    But that doesn't matter when you won't be MT-ing outside of normal content currently anyways (unless your healers don't mind you entering DPS stance).
    (1)
    Last edited by Lumadurin; 07-26-2017 at 06:28 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    FallenShadows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    9
    Character
    Fallen Shadows
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumadurin View Post
    Dummies don't have mechanics that can interrupt your rotations.

    The only thing that WAR leads in currently is that it has arguably the best personal cooldown spread of the three tanks.
    • 20% mitigation on a 90s CD. (Rampart - Universal)
    • 20% more healing on a 120s CD. (Convalescence - Universal)
    • 20% max HP on a 120s CD. (Thrill of Battle)
    • 30% mitigation + 50 potency retaliation on 120s CD (Vengance)
    • 20% physical mitigation on 90s CD (Raw Intuition - goes extremely well with Awareness)
    • "Panic Button" (Holmgang) on 180s CD, so it can be used more than once per fight.
    But that doesn't matter when you won't be MT-ing outside of normal content currently anyways (unless your healers don't mind you entering DPS stance).
    Dont forget 20% mitigation on 50 gauge cost possible upkeep of up to 70% if you forego any and all dreams of doing real damage for whatever purpose.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    Dezee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    29
    Character
    Dezee Redwolf
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    Wait
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    FallenShadows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    9
    Character
    Fallen Shadows
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    I'm just gonna put it out there, I think War's are actually really solid MT's. While the IR/Zerk windows are pretty eggshelly/punishing in their OT role, it actually makes MT'ing and maintaining moderate damage pretty clean. Especially with 4.05; it's fairly easy to build up safely in tank stance, expend gauges in short, controlled burst windows, and resume safety in tank stance again. It also outlines tanking in 4 distinct patterns, varying in overall dps from anywhere to 1.5k up to 2.7k as a MT (realistically, not with padding or pure DPS stance nonsense, just good ol' stance dancing). Realistic range to expect from a War MT in relevant content: 2.2-2.6k dps while maintaining high defense capability/low heal stress. Idk about the other 2 tanks, but that just feels like a good number range to me.
    (0)

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