{SPOILERS} So, how did you feel about...

[Theodric]

The Ishgardians and Dravanians were trying to kill each other. At times they were also trying to kill the Warrior of Light and his allies. That did not stop them seeking peace, even when it seemed impossible. Thus, by not assuming the same to be possible with Garlemald and reaching out themselves they are hypocrites - especially when they complain that Garleans are killing them when they themselves are doing nothing to ease tensions. A war that waged for a thousand years was ended. Why wouldn't it be possible to broker peace with the Empire, then, given that the war with them has lasted for far lesser a time?

War is a two way street. It doesn't matter who starts it, necessarily - because at some point so many people have died on both sides that ending it becomes a necessity. Ending it in such a way as to avoid needless bloodshed - which is precisely what the goal of the Warrior of Light and his allies should be. Instead, it feels like selfish vengeance - especially if they decide to take the fight further into the Empire's territories and refuse to acknowledge the nuances. By that logic they should have wiped Ishgard off the map - but they excused Ishgard's sins and came to understand them. You'd think they'd be bright enough to look into the 'how' and 'why', combining it with Regula's heroism and thinking 'hold on a minute...' and acknowledging that if someone like Regula can rise through the ranks and be reasonable and influential then there's probably others like him who can be reasoned with.

Defectors don't count since they have no loyalty or care for their people or homeland.

We'll see how things play out with 4.1 but...the Eorzeans don't get to play the sympathy card if they continually refuse to even acknowledge the possibility of diplomacy and peace. After Ishgard and Zenos revealing himself to be working against Garlemald's interests then there's really no reason not to try and forge some sort of treaty and/or agreement.

[Cilia]

A faction of the Dravanians (Nidhogg's brood) were trying to kill the Warrior of Light. The others encouraged peace or were apathetic to the conflict. The Ishgardians, while skeptical, did encourage seeking a peaceful solution.

We have yet to encounter a Garlean faction who prefers diplomacy to aggressive negotiations. There may be (probably are) reasonable individuals in the Empire who can be negotiated with, but we have not yet met one (who still lives). Until then, criticizing the protagonists for not engaging in diplomacy with the Empire is rather unfair.

We are also no longer at war with the Empire - for the time being, at least.

We also do not yet know if the Alliance and Scions intend to further pursue aggression against the Empire. My bet is on no. Until such a time as this happens, this is also unfair criticism.

"Selfish vengeance" should not be used when your main defense of Garlemald's blind aggression against nearly everyone they encounter is "they were pushed around before developing their magitek, so now they're getting revenge for it and improving their living conditions." If you would criticize the Alliance for hypocrisy, you would do well to avoid it yourself. We ended the fights with minimal casualties and even personally helped a Garlean soldier who had been wounded when Fordola fired on Specula Imperatoris. I don't know what more you want.

Side note: we do not have any proof that Zenos was actively working against Garlemald's interests - only that he did not care about them. It's entirely possible that he was playing into Garlemald's (Varis') plans without being aware of it. Power politics, man!

[Quor]

Even after meeting reasonable Garleans such as Regula they failed to even acknowledge the possibility of peace - and if they continue to avoid trying to secure it then they're simply massive hypocrites.

I gotta go with Cilia here. It all comes down to "start shit, get hit." The Garleans started this, in their "noble" crusade to "rid" the world of the Eikon threat. The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions, and everything we've personally seen so far indicates that the Garleans have brought nothing but suffering. Not even stability and safety, as bandits and wildlife in both Gyr Abania and Yanxia are left to have their way with the locals, while the locals are afforded little in the way of protection by the Empire. You can bang on about "morality" and "rightness" and "hypocrisy" as much as you want, but all's fair in love and war. You only need one side to start a war, but you need all sides to end it. If one side lays down their arms while their enemy doesn't they invite death upon themselves. Even if doing so were considered "noble" or "right" it's worth nothing if your head ends up on a pike. Alive and a "hypocrite" standing over the corpse of your enemy (who was the aggressor!) is better than your enemy cutting you down while you sit there passively, convinced of your suicidal "morality" in not fighting back.

Or, to sum it up, "Hah hah, I may be dead but at least I'm not a hypocrite!"

[FJerome]

I actually think Varis is Vayne, what with the kin-slaying and all, except 10 years down the line and without any meddling kids to disrupt his plans. Zenos is the Larsa, one that Varis tried but failed to protect (I don't think that Varis had much to do with the experimentation inflicted on Zenos, given that Varis was a relatively junior member of the Imperial Family until recently and Solus, being the arsehole who dropped a moon on us, seems like the sort of bloke who'd okay a great-grandchild being used as a lab-rat).

[Grayve]

I thought diplomacy was tried by the Ul'dah merchants before the game? And it failed?

[Cilia]

I thought diplomacy was tried by the Ul'dah merchants before the game? And it failed?

That it was, during 1.x. Lolorito tried to convince the Garleans not to drop Dalamud on Eorzea.

Despite some disagreement in the Empire (arguably for the wrong reasons), he failed.

[Braneric]

We are also no longer at war with the Empire - for the time being, at least.

Unless you believe that the Garleans are going to take the loss of two of their provinces philosophically I very much doubt this to be true.

[Cilia]

Unless you believe that the Garleans are going to take the loss of two of their provinces philosophically I very much doubt this to be true.

The Ala Mhigans and Domans have accomplished their objectives - reclamation and liberation of their homelands. As far as we are aware neither have designs to pursue further aggression against the Empire.

If the Empire wants to engage us in diplomacy, now is the time. If they go on the offense I do not want to hear further excuses for their lack of diplomatic outreach.

[Kyran-Varlsen]

If the Empire wants to engage us in diplomacy, now is the time. If they go on the offense I do not want to hear further excuses for their lack of diplomatic outreach.

I was under the assumption that the Emperor allowed both provinces to fall so as to force his son Zenos into a corner where he could get himself killed. The loss of two dilapidated provinces is nothing compared to the ruin that would have been brought about by Zenos ascending the throne. Both Ala Mhigo and Doma were conquered long before the current Emperor came to power and it stands to reason that, unlike his grandfather, he himself could care less about trying to conquer all lands possible. If this were a game of civilization, Emperor Varis would be the player seeking a technological victory rather than a straight up military victory to ensure dominance. This was shown in his efforts on Azys Lla which focused on reclaiming Allagan tech rather than conquering more turf.

Whatever experiments or procedures produced a powerful warrior like Zenos would be more than enough to put down anything the Warriors of Light could throw at Emperor Varis if brought to bear out of necessity. The only thing we know about the current Emperor is his focus on stopping the Eikons, possible genetic experimentation, and a willingness to work with Ascian elements. None of those seem to mesh with a conqueror, but rather someone who wants to maintain a secured position.

[Cilia]

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Ahh finally! Someone who wants to discuss the possibility of Garlean power politics being in play instead of making me go "blah blah blah freedom blah blah blah justice blah blah blah Garlemald, blah blah" all the time!

Er. I am still unconvinced that Zenos had some sort of experiments or procedures performed on him prior to 4.0. I believe that he was simply a highly trained, talented, and experienced fighter prior to gaining Resonance. Elidibus refers to him as an "irreplaceable test subject," but it is my hypothesis that Varis used Zenos to get Aulus' research and experiments carried out without publicly supporting it himself. Whether Zenos lived or died was immaterial - he would not have given his son the throne, even if he survived.

I had considered the possibility that Varis did this to get Zenos killed, but doubt he would do it for that alone. If he's going to get his son killed, why not benefit from it?

Current hypothesis is that Varis is working with Elidibus to try and secure Garlemald's safety in the restored, compressed world.