The new Spear card vs the Arrow...which one?

[Ghishlain]

Actually, they benefit more from it than other jobs. I'm on mobile now, otherwise I'd give you a more elaborate answer

I'm on phone too but let me see if I can give an example.

Say you do 1damage/1second. After 100s you would do 100 damage or 100/100 = 1 = 100%.

If you increase your speed by 20% you'd end up doing 100 damage in 80 second or 100/80 = 1.25 = 25% damage.

If you get 30% faster you'd do 100 damage in 70 seconds or 100/70 = 1.42 = 42% more damage.

So yeah, more speed = higher returns.

Damage isn't quite as straight forward though since there are certain factors not affected by attack speed but it gets the point across more speed = higher returns.

[BloodRubyXII]

I tend to fodder arrow and just spear/balance. Mfw I'm doing it wrong.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

Arrows hit the (royal) road so the Spears and Balances last longer :P

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I'm on phone too but let me see if I can give an example.

Say you do 1damage/1second. After 100s you would do 100 damage or 100/100 = 1 = 100%.

If you increase your speed by 20% you'd end up doing 100 damage in 80 second or 100/80 = 1.25 = 25% damage.

If you get 30% faster you'd do 100 damage in 70 seconds or 100/70 = 1.42 = 42% more damage.

So yeah, more speed = higher returns.

Damage isn't quite as straight forward though since there are certain factors not affected by attack speed but it gets the point across more speed = higher returns.

I'm amazed you managed to fit all that within thousand characters. I was thinking of something more in line with ingame numbers. So pardon me if I seemingly reword/translate your example.

On an unmodified target the GCD time is 2.5 seconds. 10% from The Arrow would reduce that with 0.25 seconds to 2.25 seconds/GCD. The Arrow is based on base cast time and GCD. So regardless of any innate form of haste the job possesses, The Arrow will always reduce the GCD time by 0.25 seconds. Let's take monk for example. They get 15% attack speed increase naturally through Greased Lightning. Without other modifiers, their GCD time is 2.125 seconds. Reduce that by 0.25 seconds and they have a GCD of 1.875 seconds. This translates into 11.8% faster attacks. Not convinced? Let's bloat the numbers with a 600 seconds encounter:
600 seconds encounter with 2.500 seconds GCD has 240 actions
600 seconds encounter with 2.250 seconds GCD (10% haste) has 266 actions or 26 more actions compared to the base
600 seconds encounter with 2.125 seconds GCD (15% haste) as a monk has 282 actions or 42 more actions
600 seconds encounter with 1.875 seconds GCD (25% haste) as a monk with The Arrow has 320 actions or 80 more actions. Which would have been 65 more actions if stacking speed had no increased effect

[NolLacnala]

I like throwing a +Arrow on monks because I'm an arse

[Ilian]

If you want to standardize Spear and Arrow to compare them then its possible to compare them each over 30 seconds since its difficult otherwise. Since Spear is only 20 s, then 5% benefit is over 20s with 0% benefit over the remaining 10 s. This means:

Spear gives 3.3% crit over 30 seconds.
Arrow gives 5% SS over 30 seconds.

So its 3.3%crit vs 5% skillspeed which depend on stat weights. Most (if not all melee) are weighted DH > CRIT > DET > SS as far as I know. BLM still weights SS highest and BRD is CRIT first although, Ariyalas site does not seem to be updated. I'm not sure about the others.

3.3% Crit will outweigh 5% SS for most classes aside from BLM. My bias has been to aoe a Spear over an Arrow. So, if I have a pocket Arrow and then sleeve a 50%AoE and draw gives me a Spear, I will opt to hold the Arrow and use the Spear on my party. We have DRG, NIN, BLM and BRD so I just hold the arrow to use on BLM after Spear wears off.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

If you want to standardize Spear and Arrow to compare them then its possible to compare them each over 30 seconds since its difficult otherwise. Since Spear is only 20 s, then 5% benefit is over 20s with 0% benefit over the remaining 10 s. This means:

Spear gives 3.3% crit over 30 seconds.
Arrow gives 5% SS over 30 seconds.

So its 3.3%crit vs 5% skillspeed which depend on stat weights. Most (if not all melee) are weighted DH > CRIT > DET > SS as far as I know. BLM still weights SS highest and BRD is CRIT first although, Ariyalas site does not seem to be updated. I'm not sure about the others.

3.3% Crit will outweigh 5% SS for most classes aside from BLM. My bias has been to aoe a Spear over an Arrow. So, if I have a pocket Arrow and then sleeve a 50%AoE and draw gives me a Spear, I will opt to hold the Arrow and use the Spear on my party. We have DRG, NIN, BLM and BRD so I just hold the arrow to use on BLM after Spear wears off.

You can't really compare them like that, though. Unlike attack speed, crit is an odd mistress.

An extra 10% chance to crit has more value on someone with low critical hit chance. Someone with a 10% chance to crit gets twice as much value out of someone who has a 20% chance to crit:
100 attacks, 10% chance to crit would be 10 crits. An extra 10% would add in another 10 crits (+100% number of crit hits)
100 attacks, 20% chance to crit would be 20 crits. An extra 10% would add in another 10 crits (+50% number of crit hits)

Attack speed, on the other hand, has increased value the more you stack it.

Of course, the duration is one thing and practical value is another. Considering the chance to draw and actually use a spear or arrow throughout the duration of an encounter doesn't dominate the cards you draw and use the effective gains from one or the other is hardly noticable

[Ilian]

You can't really compare them like that, though.

You're describing diminishing returns which exists for both Crit and SS but to a different degree. SS is better when stacked to a point, but eventually has diminishing returns as well. The exact stat weights and soft/hard caps haven't been updated yet as far as I know.

The way I'm comparing them is exactly what you are saying. I'm saying its 3.3% Crit vs 5% SS when you control for duration. So for any given class/current gear stats, all you have to decide on is 3.3% crit better for me than 5% SS. For most classes it seems like the answer right now is yes.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

You're describing diminishing returns which exists for both Crit and SS but to a different degree. SS is better when stacked to a point, but eventually has diminishing returns as well. The exact stat weights and soft/hard caps haven't been updated yet as far as I know.

The way I'm comparing them is exactly what you are saying. I'm saying its 3.3% Crit vs 5% SS when you control for duration. So for any given class/current gear stats, all you have to decide on is 3.3% crit better for me than 5% SS. For most classes it seems like the answer right now is yes.

I'm not talking about diminishing returns, though. Which doesn't seem to be a thing with (secondary) stats in Final Fantasy XIV anyway. And I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me/us with that second paragraph

[Ilian]

I'm not talking about diminishing returns, though. Which doesn't seem to be a thing with (secondary) stats in Final Fantasy XIV anyway. And I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me/us with that second paragraph

The more crit you have, the less each additional crit chance is worth to a point. If you have 100% chance to crit already, additional crit is worth nothing. That is literally diminishing returns. The second paragraph is just to provide an easy way of looking at Spear vs Arrow. Its 3.3% crit vs 5% SS and you can decide for yourself which one is better. Not sure how to word it any other way.