Dropped Items and Materia

[NoctisUmbra]

Thats all fine and dandy that you do or do not think its effective. You are entitled to think whatever it is you chose. A person can think the sky is red for 100 years, that does not make it so. I simply made the suggestion to parse the damage on a few non-U/U bows and check it out, you might be ridiculosly surprised at how close in comparison the damage is with the ifrit bow, surprised by what does or doesn't beat it out.

The thing is, Right now your making guesses and assumptions, telling eveyone and there dog how wrong they are. When you actually do not know. Interesting that you take such a solid stance, based on little more then conjecture.

While I will admit that I did not parse to test out the difference in Light Shot damage between Ifrit's Bow and a Crafted Bow equipped with Savage Might, it is already obvious in the parses I have done that an ARC crits naturally somewhere below and around 10%. Considering Savage Might only increases crit damage, and it doesn't do this drastically based on testing of the effect of that materia on crit damage that I have done, theoretically one can conclude that Savage Might will not increase your DPS on ARC by any remarkable value.

By testing parse results I will assume you are referring to a controlled test done by using both bows on the same mob of the same level by repeatedly shooting it with Light Shots and perhaps a WS of your choice for a large number of times and comparing the average damage.

Considering it is widely accepted that Ifrit's Bow is the best weapon even compared to melded, crafted bows and you are challenging this very truth I invite you to show such parse results to back up your claim. If I find myself convinced then I'll seek out someone smart enough to have melded a Savage Might onto a bow and repeat the test myself.

However, I will say this. While I may not have tested with the Bow, I have tested LNC weapons versus the Harpoon and found it to out damage even weapons that are double melded with enough STR and/or Attack Power to numerically surpass the effect of Attack Power +20 that the Harpoon had back then. It's even stronger now.

The base damage value being the single most potent stat by a large margin as far as the amount of damage a class does is a proven fact.

[Coglin]

So what your saying is you made more assumption, more conjecture. and more guesses. Nice.

Whats nicer is you claim ifrit weapons are widely accepted as the best weapons. Thats humorous when I read the 87 threads talking about how alot of single meld items are comparable, and double meld (which are easy and cheap for various items) are surpassing them.

Do you know what aspect of damage for each class thatbase value even effects? Every sentance for your point of the debate thus far starts with, I asume, I believe, I think, then you invite me to show you information. If you actually knew any of this yourself, you would not need anyone to show you. nor would you make all this "i believe, I heard, I think, and theoretically" sentances here after 6 pages of you claiming how its fact that everyone is wrong.

As far as what you mention you know about lancer weapons, I have no doubt. Part of what I think you are mising, its that everyone is not saying so much that weapons are better then ifrit ones all the time. The fact that they are so very comparable is the issue. Comparable enough, that they are often considered not worth the effort to seek out.

[NoctisUmbra]

So what your saying is you made more assumption, more conjecture. and more guesses. Nice.

Whats nicer is you claim ifrit weapons are widely accepted as the best weapons. Thats humorous when I read the 87 threads talking about how alot of single meld items are comparable, and double meld (which are easy and cheap for various items) are surpassing them.

Do you know what aspect of damage for each class thatbase value even effects? Every sentance for your point of the debate thus far starts with, I asume, I believe, I think, then you invite me to show you information. If you actually knew any of this yourself, you would not need anyone to show you. nor would you make all this "i believe, I heard, I think, and theoretically" sentances here after 6 pages of you claiming how its fact that everyone is wrong.

As far as what you mention you know about lancer weapons, I have no doubt. Part of what I think you are mising, its that everyone is not saying so much that weapons are better then ifrit ones all the time. The fact that they are so very comparable is the issue. Comparable enough, that they are often considered not worth the effort to seek out.

lol what are you even reading Coglin? No, seriously... what? I spoke of 2 widely accepted truths: that the Ifrit's Bow is the best in terms of damage dealing for an Archer, and that the base damage value of a weapon is by far the most potent stat when it comes to effecting how much damage you will do. Where did I say that Ifrit Weapons are the best weapons as a whole. The mage ones are a great example of weapons that are far from effective in slot.

The argument in this thread has been about how for CNJ, THM and GLA the weapons dropped are not effective or desirable. It has also been about how one can make better crafted gear with the use of materia than a majority of the U/U gear in this game - not particularly speaking of the Ifrit weapons here. Those would be the minority that do surpass crafted gear.

Next is my favorite part. Every sentence for my point of the debate thus far starts with I assume, I believe and I think. Holy cow Coglin. Did you actually read and process my post? Check again. Not a single use of think or believe and the only instance where I used assume was when I was referring to my assuming that you actually did effective parsing. You'd be surprised how many geniuses try to crunch numbers but fail at doing so, obtaining erroneous results.

Furthermore, what I wrote about the LNC weapons in the end was me telling you they don't even compare to the Harpoon. Stack more and more materia and you can see your damage increase, but the damage the Harpoon does is just too great. Again, high base damage.

Really Coglin. Search around on the forums a bit. Check some test results. Lots of people have tested, including myself. I am telling you the Damage value of a weapon directly effects the numbers you put out with each hit. That it effects this much more than anything else. The Ifrit Weapons happen to have the highest Damage values of all weapons, effective;y making them the highest damage dealing weapons. Except for mages, since their DPS isn't centered around whacking a mob.

We can go about this all day Coggy. Fact of the matter is your reluctance to post parse results that you claim to have done that show a Savage Might materia enhanced yew bow comparing to an Ifrit's Bow tells me more than whatever you want to type. Heck, you can even doctor the parse by using whatever bow you want melded with whatever else. I wouldn't even be able to tell. However, until I see something to support this wild, unrelated and specific claim of yours I can't be bothered to move a single finger to test something my experience, understanding and repeated parsing tells me to be utter BS.

Also, just so you're warned, this will be my last serious response in this line of debate until I see some proof.

[Jamester]

>>Coglin
Interesting suggestion, but 1 savage might on Yew Long Bow won't do tho, although stronger on paper if you crit. Because with my MRD DD behind ifrit in 1.19 with 21 more attacking power & critical rate but still hit less than Ifrit's Battleaxe around 30~50 (all critical + buffs) + Noctis's LNC case. So Base Damage still applies in critical in 1.19.

I am not sure how close can 2x Savage Might get but 3x Savage Might should be able to surpass Ifrit's bow. If that's the case then I think Ifrit's bow is @ reasonable level since Savage Might are not easy to get. Know someone with DEX + 47 crab bow but opted to go with Ifrit's bow but then I don't know the reason, might just be personal preference.

[Jamester]

>> Brannigan

Multi-melding requires no player input because once you gather the items there is nothing you can do to increase your chance of success.

Actually you can, at least by altering combinations. There are several other ways people do to increase their success rate tho. It varies from people to people and not really proven...XD

So can you affect primal weapons drop rate? Not being able to affect the drop rate = "requires no player input"?

Gathering items is not easy as you make it sound to be. Say a tri-meld is 1 in 100. You have to prepare the materials, craft the bloody items (you can botch some if you just standard all the time), get materia & catalysts. Requires time & inventory management = Player Input. Materia system does have process like primal fights, just more effort consuming & less dynamic. And unfortunately, its the only end game for people who spend time on crafting now.

The idea that I couldn't know this because I haven't leveled a craft is laughable - it's a single button press.

You will be surprised by what some people spend a lot of time on materia do before they press that single button.
It is laughable because you are calling something retarded before you even try it yourself. In fact, you are so far off from been able to even try it.

If a player wants to make great items because they leveled a craft to 50 then good for them. That doesn't mean that they should be able to make great items from common materials just because they can get lucky with the materia slot machine. Great items should require great materials - not great luck.

Underpowered primal weapons aside, how many good tri or fourth melds that surpasses primal weapons have you seen on the street? And compare it with how many people with Ifrit weapons and how many each have now. It is not great luck that get people to have multiple good melds, it is dedication/obsession.

Right now there is no primal weapons for tanking. I would love to have tanking primal axes as well. Like Noctis said, primal weapons are thematic. You just have to wait and bear with them in the meanwhile.

[Jamester]

I say just allow complete melding on both green and blue gear, even then crafted gear won't become useless for 1 reason:

Crafting gear is still far easier to come by than U/U stuff. People will be much more willing to attempt x2, x3, x4 or x5 melds on crafted gear than on U/U gear. There's no way I would risk a double meld on an Ifrit weapon for example.

Part of me want multi melds on primal weapons because I want to make the best weapons even if It is kind of inefficient/troublesome in current settings.

On the other hand, this completely remove the need for other non-primal weapons (except you level with it for a few hours). Because Primal Weapons (not the underpowered ones) requires at least 3 meld to be on level terms. With first meld being 100%. Other weapons including Aeolian Scimitar requires at very least 4 melds to be on level terms. Then second meld for Primal Weapons is at least 10% (Can be as high as ~25% depends on what you are aiming for). Success rate for a 3 meld for other weapons are already ~10%. Which one would you prefer to play with?

[Viridiana]

Part of me want multi melds on primal weapons because I want to make the best weapons. Although, It is kind of inefficient/troublesome in current settings.

On the other hand, this completely remove the need for other non-primal weapons (except you level with it for a few hours). Because Primal Weapons (not the underpowered ones) requires at least 3 meld to be on level terms. With first meld being 100%. Other weapons including Aeolian Scimitar requires at very least 4 melds to be on level terms. Then second meld for Primal Weapons is at least 10% (Can be as high as ~25% depends on what you are aiming for). Success rate for a 3 meld for other weapons are already ~10%. Which one would you prefer to play with?

If they did allow us to meld blue gear, I wouldn't want or expect 100% on the first meld. They're supposed to be equivalent to a 3-4 meld, right? Scale the odds accordingly. . .

[Jamester]

If they did allow us to meld blue gear, I wouldn't want or expect 100% on the first meld. They're supposed to be equivalent to a 3-4 meld, right? Scale the odds accordingly. . .

What % are you looking at for primal weapons first meld? Similar to 3-4 meld putting on another materia?

[NoctisUmbra]

It's just not gonna happen lol

[Viridiana]

What % are you looking at for primal weapons first meld? Similar to 3-4 meld putting on another materia?

If (and that's a big if) they allowed it, yeah, I'd expect the first one to be about the same odds as putting on a fourth or fifth on any other piece.