What consumers expect of a FF-title

[Keisuna]

The fact that it's a different form of media than you're used to is surely to be a factor that can not be denied. Especially considering the (possible) expectations you have set beforehand for stories in said format, in the age of Super Marios and Sonic the Hedgehogs forming the standard with barebones stories in them.

We can also think about the experience of improved visuals factoring into the total package. PSX after SNES was a huge leap in visual quality (a core part of gaming in general) and the same can be said about PS2. Then, it should also be noted that the games in question were released early in their respective consoles lifespans (starting from VII) which further accounted for the perception of the overall experience.

None of these factors have anything to do with the story but nonetheless account into why exactly people feel the way they do about these games.

Wait, so now you're blaming the increase in graphic fidelity? I don't understand. Yes, it's a factor in how we experience games, but it's not why the FF games went downhill. It's much more than how many pixels or polygons they had to work with, it was what they did with them.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Betel not to upset you but you are making claims as if those people that enjoyed the older FF games played them when they were 9-10 (random numbers) and never touched or replayed them again at the age of 30-31 (again random numbers to show a lapse of time). Which in that case you sir would be incorrect.

Also to make any claims to as why a certain person likes a certain game over another is absurd, unless of course you are speaking of yourself when you speak of said certain person. So again sir, you would be incorrect.

And thirdly, to make any claims that video games do not have equally compelling stories as other forms of media, well then you might want to broaden your gaming experience. Xenogears/Xenosaga series were really compelling science-fiction story, not only that but there was a ton of references to various real-life religious texts. Call of Duty Modern Warfare Series alone holds all the keys when it comes to modern action war movies (the single player story modes). Star Ocean: Till the End of Time was AMAZING in terms of the story and god I wish it was made into a live-action feature film :x, Uncharted series boasts some of the most realistic story telling (in terms of acting quality and believable dialogue) in video game history not to mention the cinematic way they (the devs) made the game. I could go on but I digress...


Point is there is no way you can possibly image to "sum up" why people liked a certain game, that is the beauty of entertainment, and as an entertainer myself I see this on the stage all the time; when someone laughs at something that wasn't funny for the rest of the audience, but for that one person, he/she connected with the line and the moment that no one else felt. So I find it difficult to believe you (as others seem to as well) when you make the incredibly bold claim that you personally know why I--or anyone--liked a game more than another.

[Betelgeuzah]

Wait, so now you're blaming the increase in graphic fidelity? I don't understand. Yes, it's a factor in how we experience games, but it's not why the FF games went downhill. It's much more than how many pixels or polygons they had to work with, it was what they did with them.

It's not "either or". Denying that the great leap in graphical quality going from SNES to PSX and later PS2 had nothing to do with how the franchise was perceived is quite a claim. On the other hand the jump from PS2 to PS3, while still large, already had signs of less graphical improvement for added polygons. Not to mention the first HD FF came four years after the generation had started.

What is it with your vague claim there? If I knew what you were thinking it would be easier to reply properly, but now I would just be shooting in the dark.

Also to make any claims to as why a certain person likes a certain game over another is absurd

So to state that age and life experience has nothing to do with it is completely absurd? I disagree, as it certainly does. To state that they somehow don't- now that is a bold claim.

Your first point does not really resonate with anything. Is the point you're trying to make that subsequent playthroughs are completely similar and just as good and memorable as the first one? Maybe you live on a completely different plane of existence than I, then, as I have never heard of a person who can play the same game twice and experience it the same way both times.

I have played Xenogears. Religion in a game, it must be good when they are using such theme! At least when compared to other games. The stakes are high.

[Dreadnought]

The whole franchise is based on a denial. People played these simple stories while they were young enough to appreciate them and that experience is being directly applied to anything that has come afterwards.

How is it possible for some people to keep FFX in high regard while other people think of it as the beginning of the end? It is because the whole subjectivity is what makes this franchise for each and all of us and it is directly related to our stage of life and accummulated experience at the point these games were experienced.

In fact not much has happened in the last decades. And to a great deal of people fond of the franchise, that precisely is the problem. It happened with FFVII to people who had played FFIV to VI, it happened with X to people who had played VII to IX and it happened with XIII to people who had played X. However now we have external factors to blame that people can use as a scapegoat like the departure of Sakaguchi and Squaresoft becoming SE, also Wada. They make for a great excuse for people to apply a creative fallacy to something they don't quite understand themselves. We are always looking for a reason for anything, and this franchise is the best example of a victim of that sort of thing.



In that case there should be no arguments about stories in general. Every story should be considered equal. That's not the case, though, as stories can be perceived objectically as well as subjectively which justifies comparing and analyzing them.

Kojima's productions can, also, be analyzed and when all is said and done it is not surprising that the end result does not hold up to the perceived grandness of his supposedly good storytelling. On the other hand MGS2 for example excels if not in storytelling, in an attempt to make a point about the dangers of media and its usage in general. This goes way beyond just the game itself though and starts from the early footage from pre-launch (with Kojima fooling everyone about Snake's role in the game) and continuing up until the dialogue with Raiden and Snake that sums up Kojima's whole point with the game.

"Why didn't you tell me the whole shadow moses project was all a lie??"
"You never asked."

Just like people believed that Snake was going to be the protagonist just because Kojima showed them some edited footage with Snake in it.

Brilliant. But anyway, MGS4 is a retcon after retcon. Still better than what the FF franchise has ever come up with though.

i believe snake was also the first non bad guy homosexual as well which is something SE hasnt even come close to portraying.
anyway.
take the twilight series for instance. its massively successful but ive even heard fans who've read many other books even comment on Twilights horribly basic writing style yet other people consider it a good book.
there are some things that cannot be left up to opinion - racism for example. bad story telling for another example. im sorry but the twilight series is not good literature. your opinion does not matter, it is fact. the same goes for the trite story telling in old and new RPGs.

[Luhy]

I guess after FF7, when I thought "Final Fantasy," I thought "classic RPG elements, amazing story, new innovative mechanics" for the most part. XIV is on its way with 2.0 from the looks of it. All we can do is wait and support it.

[Altanas]

i miss Opera house scenes :-(

Not everything has to be about battles.

[DrekeLamorte]

i believe snake was also the first non bad guy homosexual as well which is something SE hasnt even come close to portraying.
anyway.
take the twilight series for instance. its massively successful but ive even heard fans who've read many other books even comment on Twilights horribly basic writing style yet other people consider it a good book.
there are some things that cannot be left up to opinion - racism for example. bad story telling for another example. im sorry but the twilight series is not good literature. your opinion does not matter, it is fact. the same goes for the trite story telling in old and new RPGs.

What is... I don't even.... What?



This is for Betel.

You seem to consider yourself insightful and intelligent. I won't dispute your claim. So, enlighten me. Have you never enjoyed something, because you enjoyed it, and to hell with others' opinion on the matter? You're enjoyment belongs to you and no one else. There are many flaws in everything, as no one is perfect. Yet I somehow still absolutely love those things.

In gaming, do I love FFT because it was one of the first PSX games, or that it was my first tactics-based game? Did I love it because it was one of the few games my mother and I both enjoyed, and gave us a something to relate to as a child and adult?

The answer. Yes. And many many more factors. To claim that it was a good or bad game in, and of itself, and in relation to others, both in the franchise, series, and platform, or without, because of those factors. Well that's arrogance and ignorance wrapped up in a snuggie.

It was a game I enjoyed for thousands of reasons, all the while being cudgeled in the face with its glaring flaws. Localization, poor mechanics of the PSX's loading, the imbalance of OP classes/characters, etc.

None of that detracts on how I perceive the game though. I've played through it a good 100+ times since it's release in '97, at the age of 8. I've become more aware of every facet of the game, game and bad, and though nostalgia is there, I wouldn't assume to state it as anything more or less than I enjoyed from it.

FFVI(III) is my favorite in the numbered series. FFXIII is my least favorite. FFIX is one of my favorite PSX-and-onward games of all time(last on the console even).

I could continue, but my point is this. None of that matters when it boils down to the game being good or bad. A games popularity, how well it was received, is a minor statistic on a very complex formula to what makes a good or bad game. I know many who would claim that Justin Bieber is the greatest artist ever conceived, and they would be wrong. I know many who would claim that Justin Bieber is talented and successful, and they would be right.

Try to keep your statements objective, but remember that this is a subjective world, and no matter your opinion on something, it is transient. One person's fact is another person's opinion. One person's opinion is another person's fact. Don't overstep your territory.

That being said, I agree with what someone said a few pages back. Often times I agree with what you're saying almost to a T, and then times like this, where you have yet to reread your own and others' posts with a fresh perspective, you seem to be trolling.

[Ruisu]

I expect something I haven't seen in a FF in a long time: [SIZE="6"]Deep[/SIZE] storyline with interesting characters and character development. Last FF that ever grabbed my attention like that was 9.

Since when has FF ever had a "deep" storyline? None of the games I've played have ever, EVER indicated that the storyline tried to be something that it wasn't, or "deep". The only game I've yet to complete is 4. 8 maybe tried to be deep, but that just ended up as a convoluted mess. This is not a "deep" franchise. It never was, and hopefully it never will be.

There is plenty of character development in the more recent FF titles, and interesting characters are completely subjective.

As much as I enjoyed 9, you referenced it having a deep storyline and character development. Aside from the four main characters; Stiener, Zidane, Vivi, and Garnet, there is a complete lack of development. And the story isn't very complex, in fact it was simplified as homage to the earlier games in the franchise. So I don't know what you're trying to say about more recent titles.

[AmyRae]

Allow me to dispel some mythology.


Myth:

You know how people seem to hate FFXI and all it stands for? XII was specifically designed "as how XI was originally intended to be designed"..battle system and interaction wise.

So it was very close to FFXI, thus the hate for it, since the game itself was amazing -- The only issue I had was the dialog.

Reality:
FFXI Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXII Metacritic Score: 92 / 100

Yeah, that's right, not only was FFXI well liked, but FFXII was liked even more.

Myth:

Gonna pop in here and make a bold assumption bases on common logic:

Final Fantasy X sold well
Final Fantasy X was highly liked among the general playerbase
Final Fantasy X was a breakthrough in gameplaying
Final Fantasy X-2 was "cheaply" put together
Final Fantasy X-2 was not well received by the general playerbase
Final Fantasy X-2 did not sell well

General consumers did not get on board with the -2 idea.

Final Fantasy XIII sold well
Final Fantasy XIII was harshly criticized
Final Fantasy XIII didn't offer any kind of groundbreaking elements to gaming

Reality:

FFX Metacritic Score: 92 / 100
FFX-2 Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXIII Metacritic Score: 83 / 100

All the games were well received. They even sold well.

FFX: 7,950,000
FFX-2: 5,210,000
FFXIII: 6,350,000 (PS3, 360)

[Elexia]

Reality:
FFXI Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXII Metacritic Score: 92 / 100

Yeah, that's right, not only was FFXI well liked, but FFXII was liked even more.

XI was well received, but spending any time on these forums you'd think otherwise, especially in regards to XIV using anything that XI did, despite the fact XII was basically a spin on it and did well. So I'm not exactly sure what myth you were trying to dispel with their posts, unless you have a history of ignoring the obvious and the obvious is despite the fact X, X-2, XI, XII and XIII/XIII-2 did well, people are always criticizing it and saying they're the worst in the series.

XIII was enjoyable, yet why are there always people saying it's the worst FF to come out?