What consumers expect of a FF-title

[Betelgeuzah]

That doesn't detract from them by far, and I still enjoy their stories, but they are what they are and there can be no denying that.

The whole franchise is based on a denial. People played these simple stories while they were young enough to appreciate them and that experience is being directly applied to anything that has come afterwards.

How is it possible for some people to keep FFX in high regard while other people think of it as the beginning of the end? It is because the whole subjectivity is what makes this franchise for each and all of us and it is directly related to our stage of life and accummulated experience at the point these games were experienced.

In fact not much has happened in the last decades. And to a great deal of people fond of the franchise, that precisely is the problem. It happened with FFVII to people who had played FFIV to VI, it happened with X to people who had played VII to IX and it happened with XIII to people who had played X. However now we have external factors to blame that people can use as a scapegoat like the departure of Sakaguchi and Squaresoft becoming SE, also Wada. They make for a great excuse for people to apply a creative fallacy to something they don't quite understand themselves. We are always looking for a reason for anything, and this franchise is the best example of a victim of that sort of thing.

It's not about people "not branching out enough" it's about what you personally define as a good story or not,

In that case there should be no arguments about stories in general. Every story should be considered equal. That's not the case, though, as stories can be perceived objectically as well as subjectively which justifies comparing and analyzing them.

Kojima's productions can, also, be analyzed and when all is said and done it is not surprising that the end result does not hold up to the perceived grandness of his supposedly good storytelling. On the other hand MGS2 for example excels if not in storytelling, in an attempt to make a point about the dangers of media and its usage in general. This goes way beyond just the game itself though and starts from the early footage from pre-launch (with Kojima fooling everyone about Snake's role in the game) and continuing up until the dialogue with Raiden and Snake that sums up Kojima's whole point with the game.

"Why didn't you tell me the whole shadow moses project was all a lie??"
"You never asked."

Just like people believed that Snake was going to be the protagonist just because Kojima showed them some edited footage with Snake in it.

Brilliant. But anyway, MGS4 is a retcon after retcon. Still better than what the FF franchise has ever come up with though.

[Keisuna]

The whole franchise is based on a denial. People played these simple stories while they were young enough to appreciate them and that experience is being directly applied to anything that has come afterwards.

I don't think so. I was well into adulthood when I finally got my hands on Final Fantasy III and I enjoyed it just as much as I enjoyed the previous games. Personal preference and nostalgia may be a factor, but it's not the whole story by a long shot. The feel of a game is very much a product of the people who designed it. Suggesting that these people can be interchanged without altering the entire feel of the game doesn't make sense at all.

[Betelgeuzah]

I don't think so. I was well into adulthood when I finally got my hands on Final Fantasy III and I enjoyed it just as much as I enjoyed the previous games. Personal preference and nostalgia may be a factor, but it's not the whole story by a long shot. The feel of a game is very much a product of the people who designed it. Suggesting that these people can be interchanged without altering the entire feel of the game doesn't make sense at all.

The fact that it's a different form of media than you're used to is surely to be a factor that can not be denied. Especially considering the (possible) expectations you have set beforehand for stories in said format, in the age of Super Marios and Sonic the Hedgehogs forming the standard with barebones stories in them.

We can also think about the experience of improved visuals factoring into the total package. PSX after SNES was a huge leap in visual quality (a core part of gaming in general) and the same can be said about PS2. Then, it should also be noted that the games in question were released early in their respective consoles lifespans (starting from VII) which further accounted for the perception of the overall experience.

None of these factors have anything to do with the story but nonetheless account into why exactly people feel the way they do about these games.

[Keisuna]

The fact that it's a different form of media than you're used to is surely to be a factor that can not be denied. Especially considering the (possible) expectations you have set beforehand for stories in said format, in the age of Super Marios and Sonic the Hedgehogs forming the standard with barebones stories in them.

We can also think about the experience of improved visuals factoring into the total package. PSX after SNES was a huge leap in visual quality (a core part of gaming in general) and the same can be said about PS2. Then, it should also be noted that the games in question were released early in their respective consoles lifespans (starting from VII) which further accounted for the perception of the overall experience.

None of these factors have anything to do with the story but nonetheless account into why exactly people feel the way they do about these games.

Wait, so now you're blaming the increase in graphic fidelity? I don't understand. Yes, it's a factor in how we experience games, but it's not why the FF games went downhill. It's much more than how many pixels or polygons they had to work with, it was what they did with them.

[Betelgeuzah]

Wait, so now you're blaming the increase in graphic fidelity? I don't understand. Yes, it's a factor in how we experience games, but it's not why the FF games went downhill. It's much more than how many pixels or polygons they had to work with, it was what they did with them.

It's not "either or". Denying that the great leap in graphical quality going from SNES to PSX and later PS2 had nothing to do with how the franchise was perceived is quite a claim. On the other hand the jump from PS2 to PS3, while still large, already had signs of less graphical improvement for added polygons. Not to mention the first HD FF came four years after the generation had started.

What is it with your vague claim there? If I knew what you were thinking it would be easier to reply properly, but now I would just be shooting in the dark.

Also to make any claims to as why a certain person likes a certain game over another is absurd

So to state that age and life experience has nothing to do with it is completely absurd? I disagree, as it certainly does. To state that they somehow don't- now that is a bold claim.

Your first point does not really resonate with anything. Is the point you're trying to make that subsequent playthroughs are completely similar and just as good and memorable as the first one? Maybe you live on a completely different plane of existence than I, then, as I have never heard of a person who can play the same game twice and experience it the same way both times.

I have played Xenogears. Religion in a game, it must be good when they are using such theme! At least when compared to other games. The stakes are high.

[Dreadnought]

The whole franchise is based on a denial. People played these simple stories while they were young enough to appreciate them and that experience is being directly applied to anything that has come afterwards.

How is it possible for some people to keep FFX in high regard while other people think of it as the beginning of the end? It is because the whole subjectivity is what makes this franchise for each and all of us and it is directly related to our stage of life and accummulated experience at the point these games were experienced.

In fact not much has happened in the last decades. And to a great deal of people fond of the franchise, that precisely is the problem. It happened with FFVII to people who had played FFIV to VI, it happened with X to people who had played VII to IX and it happened with XIII to people who had played X. However now we have external factors to blame that people can use as a scapegoat like the departure of Sakaguchi and Squaresoft becoming SE, also Wada. They make for a great excuse for people to apply a creative fallacy to something they don't quite understand themselves. We are always looking for a reason for anything, and this franchise is the best example of a victim of that sort of thing.



In that case there should be no arguments about stories in general. Every story should be considered equal. That's not the case, though, as stories can be perceived objectically as well as subjectively which justifies comparing and analyzing them.

Kojima's productions can, also, be analyzed and when all is said and done it is not surprising that the end result does not hold up to the perceived grandness of his supposedly good storytelling. On the other hand MGS2 for example excels if not in storytelling, in an attempt to make a point about the dangers of media and its usage in general. This goes way beyond just the game itself though and starts from the early footage from pre-launch (with Kojima fooling everyone about Snake's role in the game) and continuing up until the dialogue with Raiden and Snake that sums up Kojima's whole point with the game.

"Why didn't you tell me the whole shadow moses project was all a lie??"
"You never asked."

Just like people believed that Snake was going to be the protagonist just because Kojima showed them some edited footage with Snake in it.

Brilliant. But anyway, MGS4 is a retcon after retcon. Still better than what the FF franchise has ever come up with though.

i believe snake was also the first non bad guy homosexual as well which is something SE hasnt even come close to portraying.
anyway.
take the twilight series for instance. its massively successful but ive even heard fans who've read many other books even comment on Twilights horribly basic writing style yet other people consider it a good book.
there are some things that cannot be left up to opinion - racism for example. bad story telling for another example. im sorry but the twilight series is not good literature. your opinion does not matter, it is fact. the same goes for the trite story telling in old and new RPGs.

[DrekeLamorte]

i believe snake was also the first non bad guy homosexual as well which is something SE hasnt even come close to portraying.
anyway.
take the twilight series for instance. its massively successful but ive even heard fans who've read many other books even comment on Twilights horribly basic writing style yet other people consider it a good book.
there are some things that cannot be left up to opinion - racism for example. bad story telling for another example. im sorry but the twilight series is not good literature. your opinion does not matter, it is fact. the same goes for the trite story telling in old and new RPGs.

What is... I don't even.... What?



This is for Betel.

You seem to consider yourself insightful and intelligent. I won't dispute your claim. So, enlighten me. Have you never enjoyed something, because you enjoyed it, and to hell with others' opinion on the matter? You're enjoyment belongs to you and no one else. There are many flaws in everything, as no one is perfect. Yet I somehow still absolutely love those things.

In gaming, do I love FFT because it was one of the first PSX games, or that it was my first tactics-based game? Did I love it because it was one of the few games my mother and I both enjoyed, and gave us a something to relate to as a child and adult?

The answer. Yes. And many many more factors. To claim that it was a good or bad game in, and of itself, and in relation to others, both in the franchise, series, and platform, or without, because of those factors. Well that's arrogance and ignorance wrapped up in a snuggie.

It was a game I enjoyed for thousands of reasons, all the while being cudgeled in the face with its glaring flaws. Localization, poor mechanics of the PSX's loading, the imbalance of OP classes/characters, etc.

None of that detracts on how I perceive the game though. I've played through it a good 100+ times since it's release in '97, at the age of 8. I've become more aware of every facet of the game, game and bad, and though nostalgia is there, I wouldn't assume to state it as anything more or less than I enjoyed from it.

FFVI(III) is my favorite in the numbered series. FFXIII is my least favorite. FFIX is one of my favorite PSX-and-onward games of all time(last on the console even).

I could continue, but my point is this. None of that matters when it boils down to the game being good or bad. A games popularity, how well it was received, is a minor statistic on a very complex formula to what makes a good or bad game. I know many who would claim that Justin Bieber is the greatest artist ever conceived, and they would be wrong. I know many who would claim that Justin Bieber is talented and successful, and they would be right.

Try to keep your statements objective, but remember that this is a subjective world, and no matter your opinion on something, it is transient. One person's fact is another person's opinion. One person's opinion is another person's fact. Don't overstep your territory.

That being said, I agree with what someone said a few pages back. Often times I agree with what you're saying almost to a T, and then times like this, where you have yet to reread your own and others' posts with a fresh perspective, you seem to be trolling.