MCH changes, pls test your stuff beforehand SE

[mero-ix]

I'm in the minority here, but I really like how MCH plays atm. :/ I agree that it could still do with a dmg increase, but MCH at 4.0 was so punishing if you messed up, and the way overheating every other wildfire worked was awkward and annoying. It's so much more fun to play now. IMO! So many people are saying the job is terrible that I feel compelled to share my differing opinion.

On my first O3S clear I had 3621 dps with no DRG. I died once and also totally messed up my rotation in the last half because I was trying not to mess up mechanics (I'm bad). We managed to clear the first three floors of Omega in 9-10 hours fine without a BRD. People are overreacting. MCH isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near as terrible as people are going on about. I love the MCH class and refuse to switch to a job I hate playing for an extra 100 dps or a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary. (`-´ )

[Elnidfse]

*snip*

A few things. Mind you it's fine to share your opinion. But let's not start calling people wrong.
Overheating every other wildfire kept our wildfire mildfire dynamic from heavensward. The reason it was so punishing was because the reward was so low. Upping the reward for doing right would have balanced out the punishment for doing sour.
Good on you for pulling 3621 after dying somehow. The average player isn't going to perform at the level of an +85th% machinist.

MCH isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near as terrible as people are going on about.

You've seem to have missed the point of the thread. Nobody is saying it's impossible to do at least the first 2 tiers adequately with a MCH. People are saying that you can do better with the same level of proficiency in BRD (while also avoiding woes of party finder exclusion). People then post numbers to prove their statements and many facts as to why that is true. The only thing people are arguing with is this same math for some reason. Which is as smart as punching a cinderblock.

Lastly

a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary.

Do you know why soldiers are trained to aim for center mass and not the head? Those utility skills you make fun of are of the same mind. I know many times a dismantle I've used or a passage of arms the tank used ended up saving us from dying outright to AoE. These are things you use to assure a victory and ease the burden of progression. I'm pretty sure the near double rDPS increase Bard provides would have helped us clear O2S in our second attempt when we reached enrage.

I'm sure if you play flawlessly you could beat O4S as well. As long as you are having fun that's what matters the most. But for the sake of actually giving feedback that leads to lasting changes don't say "MCH is fine" when it's not. It underperforms in every way that matters.

[s3ystic]

snip

I think people are getting confused here . Fun is subjective, if you are having fun, then awesome, keep having fun. Im having fun too! Despite my protests about he Job I am still playing the job. The thread is not about the subject of "Fun" it is about how MCH is the lowest performing job in all categories other than "fun." We kind of want to have our fun and our performance as well. IF you don't want extra utility, then fine, be the voice that pushes for a higher damage focus. However pretending that everything is fine is not going to get any good and lasting changes sooner, quite the opposite. So please regardless of how you feel it should be improved, let us just agree that it needs to be improved and not try to turn away suggestions that may bring some added satisfaction to the job.

[mero-ix]

All I'm hearing are people complaining about it, saying it's terrible, unplayable, no one should take a MCH, etc. My point is to say it's not as bad as people are making it out to be, and to not completely avoid MCHs. I never said it doesn't need any changes. But it's not going to get any changes right away and in its current state it is "ok". It's a lot easier/more forgiving to play now and that's a good thing. I never meant to come across as saying that it doesn't need more utility or dps (I said that it did in my first post). I just felt the need to let people know that it's still a good job, it's just at the bottom atm and needs a little more love. Denying people who play MCH to be included in content is unnecessary and overly dramatic.

There are more than enough posts about all the things that are wrong about MCH. I don't need to add to it.

[Elnidfse]

and in its current state it is "ok"

Except it's not. It's weaker in every aspect than every job. What you want to say is it's "functional" or "doable".
"Okay" would imply it doesn't provide the least rDPS and have the lowest personal damage with the worse defensive cooldowns. That's simply not true. That's the problem with words. Ever use a thesaurus? In anybodies diction "okay" is synonymous with "fine". Would you say that MCH are fine? Of course you wouldn't:

• Their damage is the lowest
• Their rDPS increases are laughable
• Their mitigation is subpar
• Their aoe leaves a lot to be desired.
• Their multitarget doesn't exist from lack of a dot.

These are facts supportable with numbers and have been supported with numbers in other threads.

• The systems work against each other (namely overheating is BARELY a dps increase when performed properly and a DPS loss in all other situations)
• Flamethrower is mediocre for anything other than managing a hit
• Their burst is now exclusively tied to 2 120 second cooldowns (in comparison to old hw wildfire burst)
• Blowing up your turret will on average do more than a tricked out wildfire
• The lack of needing to actually manage heat now is directly contrary to Yoshi-P's own words on the job focus.

These are facts.
Is it easier to play now? Yes
Is it more fun? Arguable

An opinion would be:

• Flamethrower is lackluster/ Flamethrower is great
• Using Cooldown feels/felt bad
• Merging dismantle/rend mind together and lower the duration was a good thing
• I like/hate that the dot is gone
• I enjoy/hate 4.05 MCH

See the difference? Things that run contrary to math but have absolutely nothing to do when balancing the job.

It's a lot easier/more forgiving to play now and that's a good thing.

A lot of people seem to think easier is synonymous with better. It's not. If a job is difficult, that should be balanced with a higher reward for execution. It's always been that way. That way the punishment for mistakes are mitigated by the reward for success.

Think of melee/BLM uptime: You have a clear average DPS that the developers set in mind
But the closer you go to maximizing your uptime the exponentially higher your damage becomes. That's a good thing. The skill floor and skill ceiling should never be catered to. Else everybody would be doing significantly less because they don't perform at the level of the 0.01% players of their respective jobs OR doing way too damn much because they perform way higher than the 25th percentile or w/e. There is an average set and that average includes "mess up" insurance.

On the other hand, No risk for large reward is a bad thing. Thankfully we now have low risk for low reward. So I guess in that aspect the job is balanced.
The only opinion that anybody can bring is the fun quotient. Which itself has no place in a thread when talking about hard problems the job suffers from.

And to go on a tangent BLM currently suffers from that very same reason. And I'd argue that they have it even harder than MCH/BRD

My point is to say it's not as bad as people are making it out to be, and to not completely avoid MCHs

Nobody in this thread says that you can't do content with a MCH. Nobody in this thread said to avoid MCH. There was a party finder thread where MCH were being excluded sure, but most of that were people saying that anybody excludes a MCH wouldn't be that good to begin with. And yes that certainly is true. But in regards to running it with your FC? I'm progressing my static right now. In my static my party is just fine with whatever we decide to take. We'll be at or past V3 when we finally meet again this time tomorrow (given that we've only met twice for a total of 5 hours). I'm sure it'll go fine. But I know it would be better if we took a BRD. This isn't an opinion. It's flat math. So don't get upset when you see crap like this

Denying people who play MCH to be included in content is unnecessary and overly dramatic.

It's not overly dramatic. It's about ensuring you have every edge necessary. Players ARE not all going to be pro level. And many people perform at the level where they need every benefit possible to clear. You certainly don't need defensive raidwide cooldowns but they sure as hell help. Only a lunatic would state otherwise. And on that matter let's talk about this

a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary.

Overheating isn't "necessary"
Go clear the V4S dummy right now in your current gear without doing either that or snapshotting your turret overload. Tell me how your results go. That timing is tight as hell. And I hope that emphasizes the point that these margins are often the difference between victory and defeat. They allow mistakes and help you if you're Average mcAverageson. Mistakes remember? That thing that everybody does every now and again. To argue against any of this is like saying "Gordias was a good raid."

The bottom line is this:
Would you walk to the store, or bike to the store? You'd make it to the same destination but the time it takes to get there would differ wildly. One is very clearly better suited to that task then the other. Though the end goal is the same.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

All I'm hearing are people complaining about it, saying it's terrible, unplayable, no one should take a MCH, etc. My point is to say it's not as bad as people are making it out to be, and to not completely avoid MCHs. I never said it doesn't need any changes. But it's not going to get any changes right away and in its current state it is "ok". It's a lot easier/more forgiving to play now and that's a good thing. I never meant to come across as saying that it doesn't need more utility or dps (I said that it did in my first post). I just felt the need to let people know that it's still a good job, it's just at the bottom atm and needs a little more love. Denying people who play MCH to be included in content is unnecessary and overly dramatic.

There are more than enough posts about all the things that are wrong about MCH. I don't need to add to it.

Good statement, and you ARE right, but save your words. If you're not pitching a fit or tearing down the job or glorifying BRD, that's not what people want to hear right now.

[The_NPC]

as much as I actually miss 3.0 MCH (yes I liked that version, cast bar and all) 4.05 MCH is less stressfull with the heat from heated-shots lowered. Granted I do see the "its dmg is crap" part as I crit my heated shots more than I can hit 9K with wildfire (& crit'd shots do around that dmg, ilv286 btw), Flamethower seams meh to me & I peronally hate "Turret Overload" so only use it for planned/known boss-untargetable parts only since it de-summons it... if it didn't & just haved the turrets dmg the skill would have to go back to 4.01 potency for "Balance". As for "Overheat" it just seams worthless, small dmg boost for a short time then a dmg de-buff for same time, so I make it a point to never let that happen (Not even for wildfire... which its change from 3.0 seams ok, even if that was 3.0's only real mechanic).

So personal opinion 4.05 MCH is more fun (IE: less stressful)... but I don't like the heated-shot animations or the loss of "Burst Caster MCH", I'll gear/use it regardless but those 2 points will haunt me every time I do (which sucks but maybe 1 point won't bug me later.. the loss of 3.0 ver.)

[Elnidfse]

tearing down the job or glorifying BRD

That's not it at all. Feel free to make a MCH appreciation thread and I'll happy talk about all the strengths. However, you should feel ashamed of yourself by ridiculing Ephier who is a far better MCH than both you and myself. Saying one of the top 100 MCH who helped contribute to the rotation everybody uses for optimal damage is wrong is like saying the earth is flat. I didn't want to mention that in the other thread because the point of it was letting MCH know that being a MCH isn't a dead end. And it's not.

as much as I actually miss 3.0 MCH (yes I liked that version, cast bar and all) 4.05 MCH is less stressfull with the heat from heated-shots lowered. Granted I do see the "its dmg is crap" part as I crit my heated shots more than I can hit 9K with wildfire (& crit'd shots do around that dmg, ilv286 btw), Flamethower seams meh to me & I peronally hate "Turret Overload" so only use it for planned/known boss-untargetable parts only since it de-summons it... if it didn't & just haved the turrets dmg the skill would have to go back to 4.01 potency for "Balance". As for "Overheat" it just seams worthless, small dmg boost for a short time then a dmg de-buff for same time, so I make it a point to never let that happen (Not even for wildfire... which its change from 3.0 seams ok, even if that was 3.0's only real mechanic).

I did like 3.0 MCH but from what I hear you can find a (admittedly dumbed down version) of that in RDM. So there's that I guess. But RDM doesn't have a gun so....
This does remind me of 3.0 MCH and how that relates to now. Just like then, there are people who argue against flat math for whatever reason. Though the biggest difference is that this raid tier is nowhere close to how soul crushingly difficult gordias was.

Overheat is worthless, however. But it's still a DPS increase, even if it's a small one, so you might as well grit your teeth and push through dealing with it. That said, you're not missing much if you just ignore it altogether unless you're pushing some difficult content and need that small kick in the rear. Wildfire is going to be the thing you miss the most. Our freshly buff turret overdrive can and will hit as hard or harder than it. Neveryoumind the hellishly high damage it can produce if it direct crits. The days of optimizing for extremely large wildfires are long past.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

That's not it at all. Feel free to make a MCH appreciation thread and I'll happy talk about all the strengths. However, you should feel ashamed of yourself by ridiculing Ephier who is a far better MCH than both you and myself. Saying one of the top 100 MCH who helped contribute to the rotation everybody uses for optimal damage is wrong is like saying the earth is flat. I didn't want to mention that in the other thread because the point of it was letting MCH know that being a MCH isn't a dead end. And it's not.

I've ridiculed no one. I mentioned no one specifically in what I said above, so don't make assumptions. When there were corrections to be made, Ephier updated their thread. Whether it supports any narrative you may have or not is not my problem. And what you quoted above had nothing to do with that thread at all.

P.S. there was a thread that actually had some legitimately positive things to say about the job, and to no real surprise someone (and yes, I AM calling someone out in THIS statement) comes along and starts doing exactly what I said.

[Elnidfse]

comes along and starts doing exactly what I said.

Tut tut. Some people are debbie downers. I prefer to have my cons supported with some good ol fashioned math. And I would think facts are everyone's problem. And of course I'm not going to quote directly out of that thread! It belongs in that thread. Alongside such irrational statements like "mch are not support" or some other lunacy. People who say "you can't clear with MCH" have much bigger issues. Like how to git gud.

Or I hope at the very least. I'll let you know how V4S goes.

And maybe I am a debbie downer myself focusing on the bad and all, and I'd love to fix that. But the only way to keep an issue alive is to talk about it, right? Posters like fannah have an extremely cheerful disposition so I'd like for their to be at least one thread where people aren't just being negative nancies. So feel free to make that.

But I see things like on the other forums where somebody says essentially:

MCH is not fine
The population is not low because it is strong or not strong.
It is because MCH is not fun

Or something like that

And while I disagree I can't help but wonder why people think like that. So for the sake of all MCH we should continue to give constructive criticism no matter what. You've seen Shawshank redemption right? You know the part where Andy writes a letter to the government for 6 years and eventually gets the funding? This is that.