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  1. #61
    Player
    ThirdChild_ZKI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,229
    Character
    Lace Valeria
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Then we're actually in agreement in that regard. We have been all along.

    I have nothing against the job's deficiencies being supported with viable proof. That is what needs to be spoken clearly so we can maybe get them fixed. I have everything against one dimensional statements that otherwise tear it down and offer nothing beyond that, especially when it would demoralize and push people who might otherwise perform just fine as a MCH to feel forced to change, lest they be left out. That is all I've held issue with from the start.
    (2)

  2. #62
    Player
    mero-ix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    176
    Character
    Luna'li Sky
    World
    Seraph
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI View Post
    I have everything against one dimensional statements that otherwise tear it down and offer nothing beyond that, especially when it would demoralize and push people who might otherwise perform just fine as a MCH to feel forced to change, lest they be left out.
    You've put what I've been trying to say into words much better. Thank you.

    Elnidfse: You are trying way too hard to argue with me (we aren't even in disagreement). You took a single word I used ("ok", quotations for a reason) out of context to write an excessively redundant reply. You're just being self-indulgent at this point and coming off incredibly condescending. You've already said more than enough on how you feel about the job. You don't have to beat people to death who feel otherwise. And for what it's worth, I never said the words "MCH is fine"; you did. I was responding to that when I replied and didn't mean it literally, hence—again—my use of quotations. Context matters. Stop picking apart people's replies to suit your own argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elnidfse View Post
    don't say "MCH is fine" when it's not
    You also said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elnidfse View Post
    But let's not start calling people wrong.
    I didn't call anyone wrong. All I ever did was say how I personally felt about the job. No matter how many novels you write at me, it's not going to change my opinion.

    (PS: I checked a video of our O3S clear and my dps was at 3842 before I died when the boss was at 18%. That's including me being an idiot and forgetting to place my turret for a minute after I blew it up in my opener. I also don't bother to overheat my wildfires. I see overheating as a punishment, like dropping botd, but that it can also be used to our advantage if used correctly/very specifically. I've seen bard parses from that turn between 3700-3800 so dps seems to be on par with mch (of similarly skilled players during progression). It'll be easier to see the discrepancies after players have been clearing for a few weeks.)
    (2)

  3. #63
    Player
    Elnidfse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    292
    Character
    Rigel Regulus
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by mero-ix View Post
    *snip snippity*
    I'm not trying hard to do x or y. boss. Somebody said "MCH are okay" and I figured "well let me interject". I don't intend to change your opinion and I certainly don't care about whatever self image you think matters to me. I mentioned several times that the job is completely functional. But for some reason people come into this thread and say things like "people think/say the job is unplayable" when nobody has been saying that :P

    But I heard "So many people are saying the job is terrible that I feel compelled to share my differing opinion." I used your opinion as a grounds to expand and move forward and stated why people think the job is terrible because I wanted to talk about it some more... I'll avoid quoting you in the future so I don't come off as condescending again. And I'll have you know I actually enjoy writing posts with very simple elementary level of formatting. The logic here is if SE reads any one post, it would be better to put as much effort into any of them.
    (1)
    Last edited by Elnidfse; 07-23-2017 at 11:09 AM.

  4. #64
    Player
    mero-ix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    176
    Character
    Luna'li Sky
    World
    Seraph
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Elnidfse View Post
    But for some reason people come into this thread and say things like "people think/say the job is unplayable" when nobody has been saying that :P
    Not in this thread specifically, but people are definitely saying it on reddit, in discord servers, in game chat, and discluding mch from PF. I have people asking me a lot what I think of mch because they've only heard bad things about it. My intent on commenting on this thread was to share the things that I like and add something positive to the wave of negativity. I in no way meant to disregard the issues it has. I thought it would be helpful to show players that a group can still clear O3S first week with a MCH. (and I'm not even the best mch; I'm hella derpy.)
    (2)

  5. #65
    Player
    chs724's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    19
    Character
    Axarin Aegis
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by mero-ix View Post
    I'm in the minority here, but I really like how MCH plays atm. :/ I agree that it could still do with a dmg increase, but MCH at 4.0 was so punishing if you messed up, and the way overheating every other wildfire worked was awkward and annoying. It's so much more fun to play now. IMO! So many people are saying the job is terrible that I feel compelled to share my differing opinion.

    On my first O3S clear I had 3621 dps with no DRG. I died once and also totally messed up my rotation in the last half because I was trying not to mess up mechanics (I'm bad). We managed to clear the first three floors of Omega in 9-10 hours fine without a BRD. People are overreacting. MCH isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near as terrible as people are going on about. I love the MCH class and refuse to switch to a job I hate playing for an extra 100 dps or a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary. (`-´ )

    no one said its a terrible job. i already said a couple of post before its not the biggest issue atm as every class can clear o1s-o4s but it will matter the harder content gets (o6s-o8s, super savage etc). we are all here for the love of the job right? all we want is a balanced class. no one who loves his class want him to be overpowered as he will expirience a nerf neither do we want him to be suboptimal. currently MCH does not have a clear spot in a raid we can all agree upon. he is no fish nor meat how we say in german. being the second best joice in everything isnt really satisfying especially when its your mainclass you spend all your time on
    (0)
    Last edited by chs724; 07-24-2017 at 08:38 PM.

  6. #66
    Player
    Velhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    2,849
    Character
    Velhart Aurion
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Lets bring logic in.

    Okay we have two official support ranged DPS jobs. Machinist and Bard.

    They both play differently but their overall role is the same. Provide damage while using support abilities to help the overall party.

    The trade off is while we get the best mobility and support functions, we don't provide the amount of DPS that a full dedicated DPS does. Which is completely fine, very understandable.

    Now here is the kicker. Without counting role abilities, Bard has a gross amount of support utility compared to a Machinist. Which can be fine in concept and lore. Here is the problem. If a Machinist does less support utility than a Bard, then shouldn't the natural trade off be that Machinists do more DPS than a Bard? Not according to Square-Enix. The amount of utility a MCH has pales in comparison to BRD and our DPS is severely lower than one. We are not asking for to power us up to the level of a dedicated DPS. The main issue is within our given role it is severely unbalanced. SE needs to work out both damage and support utility between BRD and MCH because right now, BRD is dominating by a huge margin. And I don't mean a slight percentage wise, I mean just such a horrid balance that I cannot understand how in the world SE did not catch this horrid imbalance of both support and damage.

    To top it off, we still have no idea if the overheat system was designed to be a punishment or intended to be a form of extra damage. Developers sure have not said anything and the numbers show it is barely worth using. Our recent changes raise the question even more. It is messy also, I can almost never properly line my heat gauge with Wildfire. At least putting in 3-4 shots while Wildfire is ready to use. It is a DPS loss there, on top of dealing with the overheat that to me feels useless unless a phase change is about to happen.

    Machinist isn't just gimp, it is essentially a broken job that no one understands. It is still my main because I still have the most fun with it and understand it much better than other jobs, but I won't lie and say this is fine. It is the exact opposite.

    Change has to happen and fast. This is not a "lets wait and see what happens in Savage" and update it in 4.1 type of thing. This is create a solution now and put it in a hotfix or a small patch ASAP.

    Two ideas:

    If Overheat is meant to be a mechanic to increase DPS and not a punishment: It needs to be 20% at minimal. Hot Shot at 10%. Also for it to help properly line up we have to go back to 10 heat per shot. Maybe instead of changing how the entire mechanic works, you just make better signs of you being near overheat. The biggest issue with beginner MCH was they were not paying attention to their heat gauge. Maybe make an animation to the UI that helps get the player's attention that they need to use Cooldown soon or ready to overheat. Keep Barrel Stabalizer at 60sec, this alone was a nice solution for beginner mistakes.

    If Overheat is meant to be a punishment: Simply make Hot Shot at 10%, increase the potency of attacks across the board.

    As for turret explosions. Make it so we can summon our turret back instantly but the ability to have them self destruct again on a timer. Right now it is near pointless to use this unless phase changing or knocking the last percentage out on a boss. I won't ever use it beyond particular situations. Thinking that simply the DPS potency was the issue of it was silly on your end. It is a DPS loss not having that turret around for how long it is gone.

    While I have not given ideas for more support functionality, I understand the developers can't just make moves like that and not have it take a long time. So I am fine with the aspect of having MCH be the less utility but more DPS form of the role while BRD becomes the more support but less DPS than MCH. This is how it should be. Right now BRD has everything on their side and nothing on MCH side.

    SE like I said, this needs an immediate fix if you don't want the MCH population dipping lower than it currently is. Even I contemplate switching to BRD sometimes just so I can feel more useful.
    (0)

  7. #67
    Player
    Elnidfse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    292
    Character
    Rigel Regulus
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Velhart View Post
    *snip
    There were really two routes we could have gone given the previous pre4.05 situation. The job was hard (almost too hard for new comers and some veterans) so we had:
    High Effort for low reward
    That's a problem. There's two ways to fix that:
    1) Go high effort / high reward as was their design philosophy for Samurai. With this. Even if mistakes happen they are balanced by high damage. And even novice MCH can play suboptimally to get okay returns with gains peaking the better they get
    or
    2)
    Go low Effort / low Reward This keeps status quo. It also makes the job easier to play for novice MCH by allowing them to play at a relatively higher level, raising their DPS.
    It's obvious which one we have now. Mind you it still very much is a (relatively) demanding job in order to squeeze out your last few hundred which requires clipping and lag to be so far practiced out of your rotation that they could happen even if you fumble.

    But your point about:
    a [...]job that no one understands
    Because most people who don't run math or have the patience to do SSS for hours have any clue if OH was a gain or not. Hell lots of early SB MCH didn't know Overdrive - > Overload didn't increase our wildfire damage.

    If Overheat is meant to be a mechanic to increase DPS and not a punishment: It needs to be 20% at minimal. Hot Shot at 10%.
    Overheat needs to be reworked altogether. If a little bit of lag can turn a gain into a loss it's simply not worth it. And the reward for maintaining sweetspot heat is neither high nor that rewarding. You basically fight against your bar (admittedly you don't have to care about it at all now) to get relatively low DPS. Is 20% on that and 10% on hotshot enough? I don't know. I'm not even sure if 20% would compensate for a single GCD mispress. Because I don't think it would but I might be wrong. I think Overheat in general needs to be tuned way the heck up or given special interaction with wildfire so that you still would only overheat when WF is up. I'm pretty sure overheating doesn't compensate for the loss of Blood 4 Blood + Raging Strikes + Hawk's Eye.
    My wildfires on average hit for less than half of my wildfires in Heavensward and that's not okay

    If Overheat is meant to be a punishment: Simply make Hot Shot at 10%
    This would be fine too but I wouldn't get why overheat would exist with any sort of positive at all if it's meant to be a negative. And I'd love to say "it can be used for burst" but it requires such a slow buildup to get there, twice as long now. God forbid you use flamethrower and just throw your potency away. Not to mention the potential 5 seconds you'd have to be spending burning anyways. And would a 2% boost to hotshot really even help us?

    Also: On Overheat
    The heat gauge in general is rather boring. It's constant upkeep with no payoff.

    I like your suggestions though. Let me add another one.

    Gauss Barrel
    This should not be a thing that requires a OGCD. It's already a pain weaving this post wildfires and to get a gain you have to be in a situation where absolutely no lag can occur, weave it on, and have the changing of normals to overheated shots not eat a GCD. if any part of that locks you for longer than a GCD you've lost damage for overheating. It doesn't matter how strong that raid buff wombo combo is.
    Remove Gauss Barrel from OGCD or make it so you don't have to reapply it. OR Failing that, turn it into an attack.


    Lastly:

    This is not a "lets wait and see what happens in Savage" and update it in 4.1 type of thing.
    I don't think the lesson was learned last time. By the time MCH got overbuffed to OP levels it still didn't matter and the job remained one of the least popular ones. I would like to not have to go through this



    every expansion.

    But for all our faults at least I'm about 50/50 of seeing a RF that allows a MCH when they're not just blanket letting in all jobs. Poor SMN is excluded from near everything.
    (0)
    Last edited by Elnidfse; 07-25-2017 at 05:02 AM. Reason: formatting

  8. #68
    Player
    Velhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    2,849
    Character
    Velhart Aurion
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Elnidfse View Post
    There were really two routes we could have gone given the previous pre4.05 situation. The job was hard (almost too hard for new comers and some veterans) so we had:
    High Effort for low reward
    That's a problem. There's two ways to fix that:
    1) Go high effort / high reward as was their design philosophy for Samurai. With this. Even if mistakes happen they are balanced by high damage. And even novice MCH can play suboptimally to get okay returns with gains peaking the better they get
    or
    2)
    Go low Effort / low Reward This keeps status quo. It also makes the job easier to play for novice MCH by allowing them to play at a relatively higher level, raising their DPS.
    It's obvious which one we have now. Mind you it still very much is a (relatively) demanding job in order to squeeze out your last few hundred which requires clipping and lag to be so far practiced out of your rotation that they could happen even if you fumble.
    I know that is what they said but they contradict themselves with this statement. Samurai is by the easiest job to play in the game and it outshines all other DPS significantly. Red Mage is relatively easy to play and it outshines other caster DPS and can heal/raise/support decently on top of that.

    But your point about:

    Because most people who don't run math or have the patience to do SSS for hours have any clue if OH was a gain or not. Hell lots of early SB MCH didn't know Overdrive - > Overload didn't increase our wildfire damage.
    Was more in understanding the concept of overheat I was referring to. Sorry if that wasn't made clear.

    Overheat needs to be reworked altogether. If a little bit of lag can turn a gain into a loss it's simply not worth it. And the reward for maintaining sweetspot heat is neither high nor that rewarding. You basically fight against your bar (admittedly you don't have to care about it at all now) to get relatively low DPS. Is 20% on that and 10% on hotshot enough? I don't know. I'm not even sure if 20% would compensate for a single GCD mispress. Because I don't think it would but I might be wrong. I think Overheat in general needs to be tuned way the heck up or given special interaction with wildfire so that you still would only overheat when WF is up. I'm pretty sure overheating doesn't compensate for the loss of Blood 4 Blood + Raging Strikes + Hawk's Eye.
    My wildfires on average hit for less than half of my wildfires in Heavensward and that's not okay
    It depends on how it is in the long run. Was thinking 20% would put them on line with BRD and more might make it OP but I think someone crunching the numbers would better prove this than me. I am going by some numbers I have seen people make.

    This would be fine too but I wouldn't get why overheat would exist with any sort of positive at all if it's meant to be a negative. And I'd love to say "it can be used for burst" but it requires such a slow buildup to get there, twice as long now. God forbid you use flamethrower and just throw your potency away. Not to mention the potential 5 seconds you'd have to be spending burning anyways. And would a 2% boost to hotshot really even help us?
    Yea which goes back to my question if it is meant to be a tool for more DPS or a punishment. I would think it is the latter but the DPS boost makes me think otherwise. Doesn't say in the tool tips when you first get the function.

    Also: On Overheat
    The heat gauge in general is rather boring. It's constant upkeep with no payoff.

    I like your suggestions though. Let me add another one.

    Gauss Barrel
    This should not be a thing that requires a OGCD. It's already a pain weaving this post wildfires and to get a gain you have to be in a situation where absolutely no lag can occur, weave it on, and have the changing of normals to overheated shots not eat a GCD. if any part of that locks you for longer than a GCD you've lost damage for overheating. It doesn't matter how strong that raid buff wombo combo is.
    Remove Gauss Barrel from OGCD or make it so you don't have to reapply it. OR Failing that, turn it into an attack.
    Looks good to me.

    Lastly:


    I don't think the lesson was learned last time. By the time MCH got overbuffed to OP levels it still didn't matter and the job remained one of the least popular ones. I would like to not have to go through this

    It is kind of surprising a gun job would not be very popular despite their DPS. I think there was some stigma that they were a hard job to play and to an extent in 3.0 they were. It may of been intimidating to people and on top of that technically not a dedicated DPS.

    But for all our faults at least I'm about 50/50 of seeing a RF that allows a MCH when they're not just blanket letting in all jobs. Poor SMN is excluded from near everything.
    This is more an issue on a Savage raid level and maybe an Extreme primal level to a small extent. Besides Savage there is no situation that a high amount of DPS is needed to take down a fight. Realistically no one cares if you are the lowest DPS job joining as long as you can do DPS. Most are in the mindset that they will take a lower DPS job that knows that they are doing over a higher DPS job that has no idea how to play their job. Just some people see "Err MCH sux" on forums and think they are terrible for everything and keep them out of PF. This is only an insignificant few and most don't realistically care.

    Myself personally am in the raiding scene. We have been able to take down OS1 and 2 no problem and 3 hasn't been an issue either in terms of DPS checks. I at least make sure I play MCH to the best of my abilities and hasn't hindered us. So it is not a huge deal in terms of that. But there may come a fight, especially the super boss they are releasing in the odd patch and my MCH despite my ability to play it may not be enough. I do not want this to happen and SE should react to their abysmal low DPS as soon as possible.
    (1)

  9. #69
    Player
    Elnidfse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    292
    Character
    Rigel Regulus
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 70
    I think I'm going to make a heartfelt thread at some point expressing in no uncertain ways my feelings. This threads title was started by somebody who was probably a bit miffed with the changes and won't be good for what I want to say
    (0)
    Last edited by Elnidfse; 07-25-2017 at 06:02 AM.

  10. #70
    Player
    Alistaire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    2,980
    Character
    Your Character
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 60
    As a side note, I'd really like for them to allow us to change retainer jobs while keeping level at least once per expansion for new jobs or cases like this where they kill a job.
    (0)

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