MCH changes, pls test your stuff beforehand SE

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

So why should a group take me to raid with so little utility when a redmage do 4500 dps and brings utility (just an example. You can put any other class in there) I think you get my point. Dps is a subjective argument to use...

I'm glad you said that. Whenever I see someone say "There's absolutely no reason to bring a MCH when a BRD already does more damage and provides more support", I challenge that line of thinking using RDM. If the top parses between the 3 look like 3600/3900/4500, and we're purely looking at numbers, that's when I (rhetorically) ask "Why bring a BRD when you could bring an RDM?" RDM is even easier to play, deals more damage, casters can provide MP now as well, Embolden is just beautiful, then there's Vercure and Verraise, capable of being instant without Swiftcast.

I've got nothing against BRD or RDM, I mained BRD before HW and I'm leveling RDM right now. It's a blast. But when people throw around stuff like it's absolute, I can't not bring up that point.

[Shhikasan]

Well the question is what do the devs consider strong. I main mch from the start and always will as its my class no matter what. I dont think my dps is to bad. To take my last O2 run as an example i did 3300 dps with no materia equiped which might be more than most mch do. Nevertheless all other classes do at least the same or more than i do. So why should a group take me to raid with so little utility when a redmage do 4500 dps and brings utility (just an example. You can put any other class in there) I think you get my point. Dps is a subjective argument to use...

the problem also lies in mch "utility" is pretty shit most tanks and healers got stuff that covers for Dismantle so its pretty useless. and overcharges measly 5% woop de do nin brings a better one. they don't bring much to the table

[Elnidfse]

that's when I (rhetorically) ask "Why bring a BRD when you could bring an RDM?" RDM is even easier to play, deals more damage, casters can provide MP now as well, Embolden is just beautiful, then there's Vercure and Verraise, capable of being instant without Swiftcast.

Crit is beneficial to healers
Better defensive cooldowns that prevent death and subsequently prevent weakness
Better rDPS that affects all jobs, not just physical melee allowing it to fit into bigger comps.
Doesn't have to trade it's DPS to offer support
MP refresh

Just to name a few.

[Darian]

Bard and RDM also are not competing for the same slot in progression. In fact world first took both because of the utility/dps they provide. However, MCH is fighting for trhe same slot bard takes so atm no real group is taking MCH when they provide less of everything.

[Fannah]

Crit is beneficial to healers

Bards also have the +20% heal buff on the targeted ally, btw. For the crit, it's only 2% and now WHM don't even need to crit to get their lilies (I know you didn't only mean about them but I still prefer to underline it). Instant cast VerRaise from Red Mages who don't have MP problems also help healers. A Red Mage helps to heal if there is a real problem. But I agree it's not the same.

Better defensive cooldowns that prevent death and subsequently prevent weakness

Yes, the bard is definitely better at this. Still, RDM has the Apocatastasis and the Magic version of Virus.

Better rDPS that affects all jobs, not just physical melee allowing it to fit into bigger comps.

It's more about team comp, then. The bard is more versatile, but the RDM will be really fine with 3 other physical dps. None is really better at this.

Doesn't have to trade it's DPS to offer support

+1, but RDM either. If they happen to have to support, it's because it's better to do so, a bard can't help to raise someone. And can't press the emergency red button VerHeal when the whole team is in a bad position. It's just different way to support, and the RDM is more about that emergency support than a support over time.

MP refresh

In long fight it's certainly is better than just some Mana shift, yes. On another side, the RDM provides indirectly Mana by his way to support with mainly (instant) VerRaise.

(when I just agree, it's to show I'm not against what you say for the sake of being against).

[Elnidfse]

Bards also have the +20% heal buff on the targeted ally, btw. For the crit, it's only 2% and now WHM don't even need to crit to get their lilies (I know you didn't only mean about them but I still prefer to underline it). Instant cast VerRaise from Red Mages who don't have MP problems also help healers. A Red Mage helps to heal if there is a real problem. But I agree it's not the same.

You don't crit for lilies. You crit for assize and asylum to get a shorter recast. MP problems are a non thing if nobody dies. And assuming they do, a refresh goes a long way

It's more about team comp, then. The bard is more versatile, but the RDM will be really fine with 3 other physical dps. None is really better at this.

This isn't a thing about comp. BRD works with triple melee as well. It flat out gives more rDPS.

He asked why would you (in a hypothetical situation) take BRD over RDM. The reasons are that BRD is (potentially) a better support. The argument he used isn't applicable anyways because ordinarily a RDM isn't competing with a BRD for a spot. But in this hypothetical if it were one versus the other, I would take BRD. In our static, we have me as a MCH and also a RDM. Two different ways to accomplish the same goal that are better when combined together. Naturally for... reasons I'll probably be BRD by the time we get to A3S.

[s3ystic]

For those who want to say damage is subjective (in a dps role no less) lets just bringing this back around to MCH utility, you can barely get a list going for what MCH has going for it utility wise on a unique level. I'm not counting TP or MP refresh because BRD can do that already. All of your slotted debufs are exactly that, shared BRD can do them too, so I am talking unique utility:

A trivial 10% damage down debuff that works on 1 target, lasts for 5 seconds and is on a 90s recharge timer.

Yup .. that's it ... Ignoring damage, you are telling me that parties are going to be clamoring to bring a MCH for one damage debuff?

[Elnidfse]

You also forget that reprisal is flat out better than Dismantle. (almost) Everything is flat out better than Dismantle. Even mantra can be flat out better than dismantle.

[Fannah]

And a knockback, lol.
They could at least make a phase where some adds are slowly moving to a point and a knockback would definitely help against the mechanic to gain time.

It's too bad knockback/heavy/bind are (it seems) never worth in a raid mechanic.

[Shhikasan]

You also forget that reprisal is flat out better than Dismantle. (almost) Everything is flat out better than Dismantle. Even mantra can be flat out better than disable.

oh ya tanks basically have their own dismantle LOL Why DOES MCH HAVE DISMANTLE they'll remove their dot but not a actual useless skill.
ok seriously what is the point of even having a mch in the game right now. coupled with the worst excuse for changes from the patch which has made the class less fun and overall did almost nothing but allow people to use overdrive.
MCH literally brings nothing to the table for any group. to those still playing them or first time playing them props to you I'm not gonna have a repeat of HW that was a terrible experience I've been enjoying my time leveling gathering/crafting and bringing real everything to a group