Developers Poor Attitude to Summoner

[Claviusnex]

They tried though. Look at SMN pre 4.0:
Player solely used Garuda for Contagion; which extended DoTs. This let player focus less on DoT management and opened the window to spam ruin more. SE's Response: Remove one DoT and extend duration to 30s each and add a proc ruin spell; less DoT management and more ruin spam.
Players wanted a big bad primal pet: SE adds DB and the community is upset because it's too big and blocks view.
Players wanted Egi's to be more like other FF and do more like buff/debuff: SE add buffs and debuff in which the community responds with anger because Buff/Debuff meant lower dps numbers.

I'm sorry but the community got exactly what they asked for and are pissed because of it.

- Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job.

- I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.

- There aren't any complaints about getting the Devotion buff. It is the half assed implementation based on one target's proximity to our pet. It is obvious someone decided they needed something for utility as an afterthought.

The same goes for Sustain. SE said they figured Summoners could move their egi's out of harms way and nobody uses it anyway so who needs it. Let's not think about how it affects Titan or Ilfrit who by definition are meant to be in the thick of it. Regular pet movement might be workable if all of the Summoner DPS was through the egi. However 75% comes from the Summoner themselves. This means every manual movement of the egi takes away from overall DPS. Add in the other changes that gimp the Summoner and you have a broken class that didn't need be broken.

While it might not be a traditional FF Summoner the HW version was working pretty smoothly. If SE didn't like that they should have come out a said we are going to work on changing the Summoner toward its more traditional interpretation and fully designed the new job. If they didn't have the resources to do it properly for SB then they should not have made major architectural changes to the job and done the minimum required to build up to level 70. In the end they would have had more satisfied customers and fewer complaints.

[LineageRazor]

- Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job.

- I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.

Actually, yeah, these are both common complaints, or at least were years ago. For a long, long time, there was just about always a thread on the front page complaining about how tiny (and dumb-looking) the Egis were. Folks wanted to have the lumbering monstrosities they were used to from FFXI. As for DoTs, there were frequent criticisms that SMN were just WoW Warlocks with the serial numbers filed off and a pet tacked on, and that the resulting abomination was hardly a TRUE(tm) Final Fantasy Summoner at all.

I, personally, didn't mind SMN's new incarnation. The DoT focus, while new to Summoners, I took as just another quirk of this incarnation, like how Rydia used black magic or Yuna white. I personally found the abstract design of the egis to be neat (it's what you get when you try to summon a Primal using a geometry textbook!) and having played FFXI myself I knew how annoying and obstructive the giant summons could be (summoning Titan to block folks' view was an actual griefing tactic during NM farming). Nevertheless, I could certainly see why folks were disappointed, even if I wasn't, myself.

The same goes for Sustain. SE said they figured Summoners could move their egi's out of harms way and nobody uses it anyway so who needs it. Let's not think about how it affects Titan or Ilfrit who by definition are meant to be in the thick of it. Regular pet movement might be workable if all of the Summoner DPS was through the egi. However 75% comes from the Summoner themselves. This means every manual movement of the egi takes away from overall DPS. Add in the other changes that gimp the Summoner and you have a broken class that didn't need be broken.

It doesn't help at all that the Place command is kinda clunky. But yeah, given that two out of three egis are intended to remain in close quarters - and Titan in particular is DESIGNED to be taking near constant damage - SE's explanation for removing Sustain is kind of ludicrous. I'll admit that I didn't use it often myself in Heavensward - but this is because I had no need for Titan at all (overworld stuff was all too weak to require a tank Egi, and instanced stuff I usually used Garuda who rarely took damage), but it was still good to have.

While it might not be a traditional FF Summoner the HW version was working pretty smoothly. If SE didn't like that they should have come out a said we are going to work on changing the Summoner toward its more traditional interpretation and fully designed the new job. If they didn't have the resources to do it properly for SB then they should not have made major architectural changes to the job and done the minimum required to build up to level 70. In the end they would have had more satisfied customers and fewer complaints.

What I object to most is the fact that SE seems to be treating these criticisms like, "Eh, there are always complainers." While this bemused headshaking is justified for some of the noise made by the fanbase (such as the never-ending back-and-forth as to how difficult the Raids should be), I'm not sure the disappointment with Summoner is so clear-cut. If there's some super-secret way to play SMN that makes it competitive with RDM, or even with BLM, I don't think players have discovered it yet.

[Alberel]

What I object to most is the fact that SE seems to be treating these criticisms like, "Eh, there are always complainers." While this bemused headshaking is justified for some of the noise made by the fanbase (such as the never-ending back-and-forth as to how difficult the Raids should be), I'm not sure the disappointment with Summoner is so clear-cut. If there's some super-secret way to play SMN that makes it competitive with RDM, or even with BLM, I don't think players have discovered it yet.

It's not just SE. Half the posts in this thread are people with no clue about SMN coming in and dismissing any arguments about the job's current state. A lot of people seem to have convinced themselves that SMNs have no legitimate reason to complain about anything because they've been forced to fight tooth and nail to get any attention from the devs since 2.0.

[Dyvid]

- Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job

Okay, then explain to the community why everyone in 3.0 used Garuda over Ifrit? Their DPS was the same so what made Garuda more prized?

- I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.

You must not have been reading the DPS boards then because it's been a complaint since SMN came out.

- There aren't any complaints about getting the Devotion buff. It is the half assed implementation based on one target's proximity to our pet. It is obvious someone decided they needed something for utility as an afterthought.

There are but it's drowned out by complaints about SMN damage and design. Actually feedback is being lost in the crowd.

It's not just SE. Half the posts in this thread are people with no clue about SMN coming in and dismissing any arguments about the job's current state. A lot of people seem to have convinced themselves that SMNs have no legitimate reason to complain about anything because they've been forced to fight tooth and nail to get any attention from the devs since 2.0.

Oh there is definitely reason for legit complaints, as long as legitimate. Right now based on parser and flogs SMN is the lost dps caster but doesn't account for buffs/debuffs as smn damage and is ignored by those sources. People are using Garuda because the magic debuff gives them a visible damage increase, it's something tangible were as things like Radiant Shields and Devotion make it harder to tell if the damage decrease is worth the buffs.

[SendohJin]

Okay, then explain to the community why everyone in 3.0 used Garuda over Ifrit? Their DPS was the same so what made Garuda more prized?

how did Ifrit match a Raging Strikes + Dreadwyrm Trance + Tri-disaster Bane on trash pulls?

and you can prefer less DoTs and less Ruin. would much rather see lower potencies and more frequent Aetherflow stacks.

it's also possible to have more detailed egis without them being bigger.

[Angry_Evil]

Okay, then explain to the community why everyone in 3.0 used Garuda over Ifrit? Their DPS was the same so what made Garuda more prized?

Contagion extended RS DWT dots = DPS increase. Obviously. Also no, ifrit has more DPS actually. I used mostly ifrit through whole 3.2+ btw lol. And was doing fine and usually better than any other smn with garuda.
Are you really arguing that community finding a certain way to play a job SE designed = community feedback about wanting more ruin and less DoTs? That's insane... People just did what gave them most DPS, that's all....

You must not have been reading the DPS boards then because it's been a complaint since SMN came out.

It is no excuse for poor implementation of bahamut. Option to change size should've been there on release. I don't see how you can blame summoners for that. Wanting bigger\better looking summons doesn't mean people wanted unreasonable things. Actually it's very reasonable. On the other hand poor implementation and proceeding handling of that WAS unreasonable. Poor communication and whatnot

There are but it's drowned out by complaints about SMN damage and design. Actually feedback is being lost in the crowd.

You can't prove that anything is being lost in the crowd. And complains about SMN 4.0 design and damage are just as viable as anything else. When "complains about complains" are not viable at all.

[Angry_Evil]

Oh there is definitely reason for legit complaints, as long as legitimate. Right now based on parser and flogs SMN is the lost dps caster but doesn't account for buffs/debuffs as smn damage and is ignored by those sources. People are using Garuda because the magic debuff gives them a visible damage increase, it's something tangible were as things like Radiant Shields and Devotion make it harder to tell if the damage decrease is worth the buffs.

What? Many people who complain do account buffs\debuffs. And they actually account much more - difficulty of the job, existence of other easier jobs that bring both more utility and DPS(u know the one) etc.
I used ifrit in physical party compositions at first but then stopped cause it was pretty pointless. Average player probably won't even notice difference between garuda and ifrit at all...
PS
By the way... Now we're skipping 1st DWT to maximize our DPS through using aetherflow stacks with bahamut... what FEEDBACK does it send to SE? That they should delete DWT? It's a DPS loss after all. Or mb that they should delete summoners altogether? lol
Community decided that they don't need DWT boyz...

[Alberel]

Oh there is definitely reason for legit complaints, as long as legitimate. Right now based on parser and flogs SMN is the lost dps caster but doesn't account for buffs/debuffs as smn damage and is ignored by those sources. People are using Garuda because the magic debuff gives them a visible damage increase, it's something tangible were as things like Radiant Shields and Devotion make it harder to tell if the damage decrease is worth the buffs.

And you get to decide what is and isn't a legitimate complaint I take it?

Sorry but no, this is wrong. People have already calculated the damage that Radiant Shield and Devotion put out. For one it's already been ascertained that Devotion is usually a waste of a GCD for your pet as they skip an auto-attack to use it and the damage they lose from that is often more than the damage a DPS would gain from that 5% increase, especially given how little control we have over who gets the buff. Radiant Shield is only worthwhile in situations with lots of adds and a physical heavy group composition. That pretty much means it's only useful for trash pulls which are largely irrelevant to balance discussion.

You're trying to pretend that SMN isn't as bad as it seems. I really don't understand why.