Tank Scaling still a massive issue

[BlackironTarkus]

Little calculation :

If you take a full set of i270 gear, a DRG would have 1307 STR (189 for weapon, 104 for head, hands and feet, 169 for body and legs, and 78 for every accessory). For the same ilevel, with vit acc melded with STR V, a PLD would have 992 STR, so, around 75%.

If you make the same calculation at i340, the DRG will have 2158 STR, while the PLD will have 1848 (If you can meld STR VI on Vit acc), so, 85%

So, infact, the AP ratio has decreased.
NB : If you ignore STR meld at all, the ratio would have shifted from 70% to 79%

This is because of the nice hefty "flat" +40 STR boost on 5 pieces giving us +200 attack power right now. This is the flat bonus I was talking about. From this point onwards, DPS will gain more and more attack power above tanks in increasing %'s.

Right now we have 1848 and the DRG has 2158. If we get another +2 per item at i360 and they get another +14 per item at i360k, and everything else increases by the same way it always has, the Dragoon will be a net 50 attack power ahead of the PLD in terms of overall gains.

The next set, if it stays the same, will increase the difference in gains to 100. Again, assuming all other gear increases in stats as they always have.

The set after that, the difference in gains will increase to 150. Then 200, then 250, then 300, so on so forth.

This scaling increase they get over tanks, and the fact that DPS can more efficiently convert Attack Power into Damage via Potency Per Second, starts out slow but adds up over time.

It's not going to a be a problem now. It won't be a problem in 4.1, or 4.2, or even 4.3 or 4.4. Maybe it won't even be a problem when 5.0 launches. But if SE's policy on how how tanks scale compared to the scaling of every other class doesn't change, we will run into the "I'm in Grit/ShO/Defiance, and spamming Aggro, and I'm losing hate!" issue.

To fix it and keep us scaling lower, they will have to continually patch in random huge stat jumps in our accessories (Like another +40 STR to all accessories at some random point for a 10 ilvl jump), or continually increase the multiplier we get to threat from increased threat abilities and our stances.

I want to get this issue raised and fixed now, because it takes SE forever to actually take action on these things. If I recall correctly, SE stated themselves they knew parry was bad as early as 3.1 or 3.2, and told us to look to 3.4 for a possible time frame. It wasn't until SB launched that anything actually happened.

We need to raise the issue now for any chance of curbing it before it becomes a massive must-be-put-out fire. It's a super slow burning problem, but a significant one.

The same thing is happening with our health pools. We will continue to get more and more hp at a faster rate than the other classes, and tuning raidwide damage to threaten us will only hurt the other classes.

It would be best for everyone if tanks were always +XX% more HP than a DPS, and -XX% lower damage than a DPS, relative to eachother. That way both raid and solo content and everything inbetween can be sensibly adjusted for a reasonable difficulty curve for all roles instead of eventually having to tailor-balance everything on a per-role basis.

[ADVSS]

It would be best for everyone if tanks were always +XX% more HP than a DPS, and -XX% lower damage than a DPS, relative to eachother. That way both raid and solo content and everything inbetween can be sensibly adjusted for a reasonable difficulty curve for all roles instead of eventually having to tailor-balance everything on a per-role basis.

Yoyally what Ive been arguing about the whole time! Agree! just that..I have a sad feeling 5.0 will bring another tank dump/overhaul. Like say they come up with a new caster tank thats been requested "owps we gonna scale tank AP with VIT now, we sowwy"''

But esides that 1 case, personally itd just be easier for them to scale it like you mentioned, never have to worry about enmity buffing, theyd have a hell of an easier time scaling future content, and tanks would progress just like every other job doesb

[Reynhart]

Again, assuming all other gear increases in stats as they always have.

Between i270 and i340, STR has increased by :
+0.00294118/ilvl on a weapon
+0.00172425/ilvl on head/hands/feet
+0.00282291/ilvl on body and legs
+0.00129318/ilvl on waist and accessories
For VIT accessories, it's a little different, but checking i320, i330 and i340, STR has increased by :
-0,0000735/ilvl on VIT accessories (So, in fact, the ratio is decreasing)

I used those numbers to imagine what stats would be at ilvl 410, 480, 550, 620 and 690, starting from the i340 values if the stats increase at the same rate. With these calculation, I ended, at ilvl690, at 9572 STR for DRG and 7037 STR for PLD (Without any STR meld), so a ratio of 73%.

Stats will probably change before we reach such a high ilvl (If we ever), but, with this ratio, tanks are still far from being outmatched in enmity.

[ADVSS]

Between i270 and i340, STR has increased by :
+0.00294118/ilvl on a weapon
+0.00172425/ilvl on head/hands/feet
+0.00282291/ilvl on body and legs
+0.00129318/ilvl on waist and accessories
For VIT accessories, it's a little different, but checking i320, i330 and i330, STR has increased by :
-0,0000735/ilvl on VIT accessories (So, in fact, the ratio is decreasing)

I used those numbers to imagine what stats would be at ilvl 410, 480, 550, 620 and 690, starting from the i340 values if the stats increase at the same rate. With these calculation, I ended, at ilvl690, at 9572 STR for DRG and 7037 STR for PLD (Without any STR meld), so a ratio of 73%.

Stats will probably change before we reach such a high ilvl (If we ever), but, with this ratio, tanks are still far from being outmatched in enmity.

but how many hp do tanks have at 680?

[BlackironTarkus]

You have to factor in the fact that dps classes are far more efficient with their potency per second, being able to turn their increased attack power into even further increased dps better than tanks can turn attack power into dps. This adds a slight but present multiplier to the speed at which the differences will increase. Again, it's slow burning, but it is a problem.

Additionally as has been stated, having such low scaling can make i320 choices best in slot over i340, maybe even up to i380+ over more efficient secondary stats alone. It's not hard to beat out 2, 4, or even 6 or maybe 8 str depending on what secondaries you are trading.

[Reynhart]

You have to factor in the fact that dps classes are far more efficient with their potency per second, being able to turn their increased attack power into even further increased dps better than tanks can turn attack power into dps.

Yes, but they're not more efficient at turning AP into damage as tanks are at turning AP into enmity. And again, we've only looked at the AP ratio. Keep in mind that weapon damage is the same between all jobs, and has a (comparatively) greater impact than AP.

A little reminder. People justify the scaling problem by using the recent enmity boost patch as proof. Keep in mind that the only enmity that was increased was for low-level skills, for tanks that don't have their tank stance yet. With the tank stance, there isn't any real issue with enmity unless you overneglect your enmity combo.

Additionally as has been stated, having such low scaling can make i320 choices best in slot over i340, maybe even up to i380+ over more efficient secondary stats alone. It's not hard to beat out 2, 4, or even 6 or maybe 8 str depending on what secondaries you are trading.

It has happened before. Remember the i120 CT body compared to the i130 Poetic body and its wonderful Accuracy/Parry secondaries...
All and all, it's a nice touch that ilvl is not the only thing that matters, as long as it's not a blatant overlook like i270 STR vs i320 VIT acc.

[StouterTaru]

If dps accs gain 14 str on a 20 ilvl jump, tank accs need to gain 14 too. By handing dps +14 and tanks +2 for this higher ilvl, eventually you will be back to square one.

Dps i320 to i340 upgrade is +208 main stat, roughly a 9.0% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)
Tank i320 to i340 upgrade is +141 STR, roughly a 7.4% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)

The gap is there, but it's not so massive that a major correction is going to be needed before the next expansion.

[BlackironTarkus]

Dps i320 to i340 upgrade is +208 main stat, roughly a 9.0% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)
Tank i320 to i340 upgrade is +141 STR, roughly a 7.4% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)

The gap is there, but it's not so massive that a major correction is going to be needed before the next expansion.

You are correct, but with how long se takes to change things I'd like to raise the issue now before it becomes a problem. Even if slight, every set of gear we get like this will see our damage go up slightly but overall contribution to the raid go down slightly. Over enough time it'll feel pretty bad.

[Ragnarokl]

SE seems to take every chance they get to lower tank damage. I am not surprised by anything at this point.

[Pyitoechito]

Maybe VIT or the new Tenacity substat could be made to have a minor effect on enmity gain to offset the "tank scaling" issue?