Tank Scaling still a massive issue

[Falar]

Let's swap this around.

What if the Melee DPS classes could survive 80% of an encounter's tank busters while putting out around 80% the threat of a Tank-stance Tank?

Then good for them, I hope they enjoy their class.

[Reynhart]

In game, whether FC chat, Linkshell, shout, whatever I have never seen anyone who mains a tank wanting a DPS nerf.

What you see is only a fraction of the community, far from being any relevant sample to claim your opinion as a general one.
At least I have the onesty to only voice my personal opinion.

The other two are packing the biggest, heaviest weapons in the game

Basic MMO knowledge, what your character looks like doesn't have any relevance on what numbers you can do. For the record, this has higher defense than this.

And no, we won't need enmity patches. We'll just need to use our tank stance and/or our enmity combo more.

[Capn_Goggles]

Let's swap this around.

What if the Melee DPS classes could survive 80% of an encounter's tank busters while putting out around 80% the threat of a Tank-stance Tank?

Your absurd hypothetical isn't even remotely comparable, because all roles are designed to do damage, the other two just have additional responsibilities. Tanks have simpler rotations because they also have a responsibility to manage defensive cooldowns and tank-centric mechanics, as a consequence they should also do a bit less damage. 70-80% is not an unreasonable figure in this regard given that their responsibilities generally do not place so much pressure on them that they have to single-mindedly focus on it.

The only solution to a DPS meta is a complete overhaul of how the game works, and I don't see that happening in the near future.

Basic MMO knowledge, what your character looks like doesn't have any relevance on what numbers you can do. For the record, this has higher defense than this.

And no, we won't need enmity patches. We'll just need to use our tank stance and/or our enmity combo more.

You're being pedantic. It's not just a matter of how it *looks*. Both WAR and DRK are pushed as offensively-focused tanks, warrior especially. Do you honestly thing anyone would want to tank if nothing about the process changed, and slamming a greataxe on a dragon's head gifted you with a 112!! while the SAM is pounding his head on the keyboard and landing 19,000!

And yes, they will need to do enmity patches in the future at the current rate because we have a whole slew of abilities beyond our enmity combo. Again, a ton of warrior stuff is EXCLUSIVE to their DPS stance, are you honestly telling us to ignore a solid 40% of our kit in favor of such a lazy, unrewarding playstyle?

[Inuakurei]

In game, whether FC chat, Linkshell, shout, whatever I have never seen anyone who mains a tank wanting a DPS nerf.

I only see that stuff on the forums.

"I don't want to have to DPS"

"I just want enmity moves"

"I should not have to do anything but sit there and spam taunt/provoke style moves and defensive cooldowns"

"I don't want more attack power, I want more HP"

These are all things I only see posted here on the OF, never in the game itself.

First of all, no one likes a nerf. No one says "yes please nerf my class". There were even posts saying "SE please dont nerf paladin!"

Secondly those are all hyperbolize. No one says tanks need to do no damage at all. No one wants only enmity moves. No one wants to only spam provoke. And defiantly no one wants more HP, if anything our HP is overinflated as it is.

There seems to be this weird idea that you can only do one or the other. Either we have damage, or we have tank mechanics. When in reality its possible to have a reasonable amount of both, but right now our focus is more on damage than tank.

[aleph_null]

Let's swap this around.

What if the Melee DPS classes could survive 80% of an encounter's tank busters while putting out around 80% the threat of a Tank-stance Tank?

The 20% of tank busters they can't survive would prevent people from bringing no tank to certain fights though. If they can survive every tank buster then they'll just become the new tanks and people won't bring "actual" tanks.

Also don't forget that dps jobs have their own utilities as well, from raid dps buffs to really high personal dps. Tanks and healers just bring different utilities like aggro control, mitigation and healing. If it weren't for fflogs separating standard 2/2/4 composition parses form non standard composition, people would have been using solo tank or solo heal compositions for the speedkill race.

Secondly those are all hyperbolize. No one says tanks need to do no damage at all. No one wants only enmity moves. No one wants to only spam provoke. And defiantly no one wants more HP, if anything our HP is overinflated as it is.

There seems to be this weird idea that you can only do one or the other. Either we have damage, or we have tank mechanics. When in reality its possible to have a reasonable amount of both, but right now our focus is more on damage than tank.

I think the main concern here is that different people have different threshold for "reasonable amount" when it comes to how much dps tanks and healers should bring. Some people want tanks to do 70-80% of dps jobs, some want 40-50%, I don't think we can find a number which everyone would agree on.

If we keep the current str scaling on accs then we'll just feel less rewarded for gearing up compared to other jobs. It feels bad when a fending acc drops when you clear o1s. Those 2 str and 17 vit won't help you as much as 14 main stats for another job, including healers. Dps wise, 2 str would be even smaller than 14 main stats for another job. Survivability and mitigation wise, you'll never require the extra vit you gain from i340 gear to clear the raid since if that's the case no one would be able to clear the raid until their tanks have full i340 right side. 1.7k hp (5x 17 vit = 85 vit) is also really unlikely to allow your healers to heal you for less gcds, it's also really unlikely to allow you stay out of tank stance longer.

My group got a fending ring yesterday, and even though I was the one who got it, I wish it would've dropped dps or healer accessories instead since that'd provide more benefit for my group. I'd rather have the devs reduce our potencies while giving us full amount of dps main stats on both left and right side gear. At least that way it won't feel as terrible as now when I see fending accessories drop.

[Falar]

First of all, no one likes a nerf. No one says "yes please nerf my class". There were even posts saying "SE please dont nerf paladin!"

Secondly those are all hyperbolize. No one says tanks need to do no damage at all. No one wants only enmity moves. No one wants to only spam provoke. And defiantly no one wants more HP, if anything our HP is overinflated as it is.
There seems to be this weird idea that you can only do one or the other. Either we have damage, or we have tank mechanics. When in reality its possible to have a reasonable amount of both, but right now our focus is more on damage than tank.

I disagree. Our primary focus is still to hold enmity and place the boss appropriately while staying alive. You have to do those things or you fail in your role.

What separates the good tanks from the amazing tanks is the ability to play a more risky style (and are backed by competent healers) and deal a lot more damage while still accomplishing the tank requirements.

You can play either way and succeed (i.e. clear the content) either way but the aggressive style will always do it faster all else being equal. That will never change no matter what changes come to the game. More group damage = faster clear. No way around that formula.

Those weren't all hyperbole either. There have been plenty of threads and comments in this section along those lines.

[Kabooa]

70-80% is not an unreasonable figure in this regard given that their responsibilities generally do not place so much pressure on them that they have to single-mindedly focus on it.

The only solution to a DPS meta is a complete overhaul of how the game works, and I don't see that happening in the near future.

Oh, no, that extra responsibility of pushing a cooldown when the tank buster comes in, or swapping when the forced tankswaps come in.

The 'absurd' hypothetical when someone else infringes on your main purpose of existence should be more than enough to shine the light on why a Tank character dealing comparable damage to a Damage Dealing class is an issue. 70% is like, the absolute most. And at the numbers presented, the range of 60-70% seems to be where the tanks able to DPS stance sit, which is not only a fair number, but comparable to their numbers in the expansion everyone is rose-tinted goggling over.

There's no argument that you shouldn't maximize what you can where you can, which goes without question in the top content, but if the equally 'skilled' Samurai in equal gear is putting out 5,000, in no way or form is it fair in any regard that the most durable person in the raid should be putting out 4,000.

[Allyrion]

We have been over this. Weakness only lowers STR/DEX/INT/MND, not VIT. In your scenario, tank DPS and HP are both governed by VIT. So, dying would not have any penalty for tanks at all? Do you think that's balanced?

I don't think that's a worthy excuse for the plethora of complications that splitting the stats cause. If they reverted the change, they could just accompany it with a weakness change to give a magic/damage down debuff instead of it being tied to the Stats. There is no reason the Weakness debuff should have that kind affect on how gear and what stats tanks scale off of.

[Reynhart]

And yes, they will need to do enmity patches in the future at the current rate because we have a whole slew of abilities beyond our enmity combo. Again, a ton of warrior stuff is EXCLUSIVE to their DPS stance, are you honestly telling us to ignore a solid 40% of our kit in favor of such a lazy, unrewarding playstyle?

Sure, because everybody knows a WAR is always main tanking, right ? No off-tanking, no tank swapping...besides, I'm pretty sure WARs were pretty ok with ignoring Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone during 3.x...and now they simply advocate removing Unchained alltogether. So, yes, apparently, they are ok ignoring "a solid 40% of their toolkit"...including their tank stance.

[Duelle]

And yes, they will need to do enmity patches in the future at the current rate because we have a whole slew of abilities beyond our enmity combo.

On a PLD, all this'll mean is using Rage of Halone a little more over Royal Authority.

On a DRK that means using non-DA Power Slash combo before returning to using Dark Arts + Syphon Strike/Bloodspiller/Carve & Spit/Souleater/Dark Passenger.

WAR might be the only one affected by this, since you'd have to use Butcher's Block a bit more vs spamming Storm's Path for 20 gauge, but that points more to how staggered gauge generation is on WAR and will hopefully lead to the devs addressing it (really, why the hell doesn't Heavy Swing generate gauge?).

Again, a ton of warrior stuff is EXCLUSIVE to their DPS stance, are you honestly telling us to ignore a solid 40% of our kit

Stuff locked behind Deliverance: Fel Cleave, Decimate, Inner Release, Equilibrium TP recovery.

That's a far cry from 40%.