Tank Scaling still a massive issue

[Reynhart]

I'm not quite too sure why people are defending the fact that SE is killing tank damage.

Personally, it's because I don't care about any damage modification based solely on gear. It doesn't change how skilled I am on my rotation or on my cooldowns.
And that's even before mentionning that turtle tanking has more appeal to me since I admit it's only a personnal preference.

If the enmity dump skills are enough, then the main concern of this topic is a non-issue...which it already isn't since we have a huge enmity generation anyway.

[Seku]

Personally, it's because I don't care about any damage modification based solely on gear.
And that's even before mentioning that turtle tanking has more appeal to me since I admit it's only a personal preference.

If the enmity dump skills are enough, then the main concern of this topic is a non-issue...which it already isn't since we have a huge enmity generation anyway.

Your argument makes 0 sense. You want them to nerf tank damage, because you prefer to sit in tank stance when there is 0 reason to, unless you're running with a healer that can't keep you up? -- makes 0 sense.

Just because you don't care about contributing to your group through damage, while still meeting tank buster checks and keeping aggro, doesn't mean other's don't. As for your rotation and cool downs, it's not hard to memorize out going tank busters. I'd hope you know your rotations and cool downs, as that's the bare minimal for any fight and for any role, the entire system runs on a clock and burst windows.

The main concern of this topic won't be a issue for a very long time, as stated multiple times by the OP. They are just trying to address a possible issue that can become huge..

But bringing down tank damage for the sake of forcing people into a other wise non desired stance is purposely being ignorant. Damage should not be nerf, out going damage to the tanks should be increased to give meaning to defensive stances and defensive stats. Though the only time this is seen at is during progression.

Consider this, a Tank and a DPS are given a project (upgrade their accessories) for an end reward of X attack power (being different values for Tank/DPS).
The DPS is offered 20% of the payment for each milestones (accessory upgrade).
The Tank is offered 75% as upfront payment before starting the work, and 5% for each milestone.
Both get their due reward at the end of the day.

The "X" in this equation is what matters the most. The tank is offered 75% upfront. But 75% of what and an additional 5% of what? If the variable "x" for attack power is 50 for tanks, but the DPS attack power variable "x" is 200, as that's their payment for each patch cycle of gear, then the gap between tanks and DPS increases each patch cycle, instead of staying a static amount different from each other.

As for you being confidant in what SE is going to do, that's cool. But really no one knows what their going to do until they do it.

[whiskeybravo]

The "X" in this equation is what matters the most. The tank is offered 75% upfront. But 75% of what and an additional 5% of what? If the variable "x" for attack power is 50 for tanks, but the DPS attack power variable "x" is 200, as that's their payment for each patch cycle of gear, then the gap between tanks and DPS increases each patch cycle, instead of staying a static amount different from each other.

I'm not trying to put words in Shinkyo's text. But I think your trying to draw too much from that example. X is an undefined variable, it would be however much AP increases per str for that given role. The % in reference are the str we have on accessories now (75%) and the (5 x 5%) is the small +2 str from each accessory. Whereas dps get an "upgrade" each step, I think what he's basically saying is we got our "upgrade" upfront with the addition of str, and a small bonus each new accessory.

They should be able to better balance str amounts on dps and tanks moving forward, as others said it was just an emergency fix regarding 270 accessories so they had to balance it with the content already designed. Tanks do not need the same AP as dps right now. There is no scaling issue currently, there is no dps issue currently.

[Shinkyo]

I'm not trying to put words in Shinkyo's text. But I think your trying to draw too much from that example. X is an undefined variable, it would be however much AP increases per str for that given role. The % in reference are the str we have on accessories now (75%) and the (5 x 5%) is the small +2 str from each accessory. Whereas dps get an "upgrade" each step, I think what he's basically saying is we got our "upgrade" upfront with the addition of str, and a small bonus each new accessory.

They should be able to better balance str amounts on dps and tanks moving forward, as others said it was just an emergency fix regarding 270 accessories so they had to balance it with the content already designed. Tanks do not need the same AP as dps right now. There is no scaling issue currently, there is no dps issue currently.

You may not have put word into my mouth but you perfectly conveyed my thoughts :-)

[Inuakurei]

First I just want to say I’m not upset at you in particular, my previous post came off a bit ruder than I meant. I’ve seen you post a lot around here and I like a lot of your ideas. I’m actually upset at SE who seem like they either can’t make up their minds on what they actually want us to be, or don’t have the gulls to actually enforce what they want.

Explain to me then that why Tanks cannot have the same damage range as DPS. Does it truly make you feel bad that a class you believe should be nothing more than an inanimate wall for all intent and purposes does more damage then you? Does it bother you that tanks in this game or others does not follow with your ancient belief that tanks should be a wall and nothing more. Who is the narrowminded one here?

There is no real reason why Tanks can’t be a tankier dps class. It doesn’t bother me at all if that’s what the Tank role is meant to be, though the problem arises when SE says otherwise and the community refuses to relinquish HW dps meta.
It’s quite clear from SE’s recent doings that they do not want tanks to deal that much damage anymore. In the recent patch they gave us str on our accessories, like everyone has been asking for. Yet they gave us even less str than the i270 stuff that we’ve been using sing SB launch. It’s clear they don’t want to give tanks str, yet it’s all some tanks talk about. I’m not the one saying stop, SE is. The days of Tanks doing 80% of a dps’ damage are over and they’re not coming back. We have to get over it. I just want us to stop wasting our time yelling about str accessories so we can get some decent, worthwhile changes.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how you cut or slice it. No matter how much you believe otherwise. Damage is king. Damage is what matters because damage contributes to the goal of the fight.

Do you know what the purpose of tanking and healing is? To allow damage to occur by insuring the survival of the DPS. Yes that's right. If you purely tank or purely heal, you will never win. Because if you do nothing to the enemy, you have no impact.

This is true, you do need dps to kill the enemy, but I disagree that not doing a lot of damage means you have no impact. While it is true that the end goal is to defeat the enemy it’s a team effort in doing so, and each member of the team contributes to that goal in different ways. That’s how a team works. That’s how the “holy trinity” that FFXIV is based on is supposed to work. Things get boring if everyone has the same role.
Is taking the boss any less valuable than dealing damage to it? I don’t think so. Or at least it’s not supposed to be.

Face it, tanking in this game is not how you like it not because of the community but because SE's design, whether they themselves are aware of it or not is about surviving ENOUGH and pouring the rest of your resources into something USEFUL. Which is, YOU GUESSED IT. DAMAGE. Whether it be indirectly through more effective mitigation allowing Healer offensive GCDS or your own personal output.

I don’t blame the community for wanting to maximize tank damage. The community just does what is most efficient. What I do blame is SE’s terrible design.
It’s blatantly obvious that they have no idea what they want to do with the Tank role as a whole. There is something seriously wrong when at the very start of brand new content we can completely ignore our new i310 fending accessories , in favor of i270 slaying accessories and still tank without any issues. We are pretty much ignoring 120 ilevels of what is supposed to be our “main stat” and going unpunished for it. THAT is the real problem. Not our damage scaling, not str on accessories, not our pps. The problem is it’s that our “main stat” is effectively worthless and SE isn’t doing anything about it. We should be upset about that, not the str.
And no our “main stat” is not str, at least not according to SE.

I'd argue that more people would prefer offensive tanking then Dance Dance Revolution tanking. The popularity of tanks in HW and the DPS roles atleast support this theory. And as many people have attempted to point out in a derogatory and condescending manner, most here on the forums seem to prefer something that has a rewarding skill ceiling. (I.E DAMAGE).

Tank roles in HW took a slight increase in popularity because of DRK. And even then it didn’t last long and wasn’t impactful enough to remove Tanks from being the “Adventurer in need” for long.
This is another misnomer though that the only way to make a Tank class fun, engaging, or skillful is with damage. TBN is a good example of how to make a good tank ability, we need more things like that.
All I’m saying is that it’s clear SE is not going to give us our HW damage back. They’re just not. No matter how much we whine and yell, tank dps is not something what they want. So what we should be doing is asking for things they might actually do.
Although nothing at all will help until some fundamental issues are fixed (content doesn’t hit hard enough, vit being a useless stat, boring mitigation skills, etc).

[aleph_null]

There is no real reason why Tanks can’t be a tankier dps class. It doesn’t bother me at all if that’s what the Tank role is meant to be, though the problem arises when SE says otherwise and the community refuses to relinquish HW dps meta.
It’s quite clear from SE’s recent doings that they do not want tanks to deal that much damage anymore. In the recent patch they gave us str on our accessories, like everyone has been asking for. Yet they gave us even less str than the i270 stuff that we’ve been using sing SB launch. It’s clear they don’t want to give tanks str, yet it’s all some tanks talk about. I’m not the one saying stop, SE is. The days of Tanks doing 80% of a dps’ damage are over and they’re not coming back. We have to get over it. I just want us to stop wasting our time yelling about str accessories so we can get some decent, worthwhile changes.

I'd say, let people complain if they don't like certain things. If enough of the playerbase don't like the changes or the direction the devs are taking this game, I believe that the devs should know about it. Personally I like doing a lot of damage even as a tank, and I don't like the recent changes, but I still stick with my tank role because I have committed to a static group. I guess if they keep going toward this direction I'll just switch to a dps role or find a different game to play, but I don't think we should stop voicing our complaints and concerns to the devs, regardless of what they are thinking or have said in the past, they might change their mind in the future.

Btw about the "HW dps meta" where people run with i270 slaying accs before 4.05, you can't say that we're ignorant and unable to move on when that was arguably the optimal thing to do when you're skilled enough. All the top kill speed groups in susano/lakshmi bring tanks that obviously wear slaying accs, and I haven't seen a single group bringing tanks wearing vit accs come close to them in terms of total tank+healer dps. It's clear the devs wanted to kill the meta, but they failed miserably.

[aleph_null]

Personally I'm not really concerned about future patches' tank dps scaling. Based on 3.x the devs can't seem to make up their mind about what they want tank dps to be like, and the current small str on vit accs looks like a band aid solution because we're mid patch. I think they work okay for now (slightly less powerful than i270 accs), we're not falling so far behind dps, and if in the future our dps falls far behind other dps jobs or even healers people will definitely come back to reddit and forums and complain, and the devs will try to come up with something again lol.

Just try to maximize what we currently have, pre 4.05 use i270 accs, post 4.05 use fending accs with str melds, and if they change it again just adapt and pick the best option.

[Falar]

I don't understand this vocal minority of tanks who seem to want our damage nerfed.

Finally, a game where tanking doesn't amount to you swinging a foam bat instead of a sword and people are complaining.

[Kabooa]

I don't understand this vocal minority of tanks who seem to want our damage nerfed.

Finally, a game where tanking doesn't amount to you swinging a foam bat instead of a sword and people are complaining.

"Finally"

This isn't exactly a new theme. Hell, WoW got rid of that notion like, 4-5 years ago. Every Action MMO has done the same.

No one's saying a tank can't do their fair share, it's when that fair share starts stepping over the boundaries. And frankly, the number ratios are like, nearly the same for heavensward. If the average tank does 2800-3000, then they are doing approximately 60-70% of the higher DPS classes.

Which people seem to be happy with, but for 'some reason' only being able to do that in DPS stance, and DPS stance being discouraged -while actively getting hit in the face- is a no-no.

And people are doing it anyways, so I really am not seeing the issue here.

[whiskeybravo]

I don't understand this vocal minority of tanks who seem to want our damage nerfed.

Finally, a game where tanking doesn't amount to you swinging a foam bat instead of a sword and people are complaining.

I don't have a problem with tank damage per se, it's more the notion that dps seems to be the priority for tanking. In my opinion, it should be more important for DPS to actually reach their potential before haranguing tanks about reaching theirs.