The Summoning of Susano

[Cilia]

Susano'o is interesting because he suggests that primals are not entirely fabrications summoned by Ascian-taught rituals, but rather a natural phenomenon that can occur under the right conditions. Nobody wanted or tried to summon Susano'o - it just kind of happened, which does fit with his role as a(n unpredictable) storm god but doesn't fit what we know of primal summonings.

Curiously, Susano'o also doesn't seem to be possessed of the malice or desire to temper Ascian-taught primals do. He simply does what he is said to do - revel in combat, wild and pure and forever free. I'd be very interested to see more such "natural" primals, and would wager we'll see Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu during 4.x.

[Alberel]

Susano'o is interesting because he suggests that primals are not entirely fabrications summoned by Ascian-taught rituals, but rather a natural phenomenon that can occur under the right conditions. Nobody wanted or tried to summon Susano'o - it just kind of happened, which does fit with his role as a(n unpredictable) storm god but doesn't fit what we know of primal summonings.

Curiously, Susano'o also doesn't seem to be possessed of the malice or desire to temper Ascian-taught primals do. He simply does what he is said to do - revel in combat, wild and pure and forever free. I'd be very interested to see more such "natural" primals, and would wager we'll see Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu during 4.x.

I have to wonder if this difference is simply due to us being in a place less affected by Ascian manipulation, or if it is a symptom of something much larger. The ease with which Susano and Lakshmi were accidentally summoned is extremely problematic as it renders the Scions' efforts against primals somewhat pointless. It also doesn't fit in with our understanding of Eorzea being rife with primals due to its aether concentration; it should be harder to summon outside Eorzea, not easier.

Is it possible that something has changed that is making summoning easier across Hydaelyn? I ask this because there is an unresolved plot thread that was brought up again in the MSQ: the strange aether readings in the Shroud discovered immediately prior to Wilred's death. The MSQ prompts us to remember this (in Rhalgr's Reach IIRC) so it seems to me that it may hold some significance going forward...

[Anonymoose]

I have to wonder if this difference is simply due to us being in a place less affected by Ascian manipulation

I'm hoping this is something explored in the future. We don't see any Ascian influence there now, but we're late to this party. Othard was summoning primals and going to war over twenty-five years ago. The Source's overlord was (presumably) ganked and his minions vaporized or scattered to the wind this year. Did Ascians play a part back then? Are we seeing lingering effects?

There's also the less likely possibility that some remain and are just working unseen. The Ascians have almost always remained hidden and worked in secret; the first thing you hear about them in 2.00 is that the Scions can't fathom why they would be so brazen now. Maybe with Lahabrea missing and Elidibus focusing on major players, there are still a few black-masks wandering around acting as they did in the old days.

Is it possible that something has changed that is making summoning easier across Hydaelyn?

Much earlier in the game, between Minfilia's assertion that primals cannot exist when the world is stable, Lahabrea's rambling about the natural order coming undone, and the (then unconfirmed) theory that primals were just throughtforms, I considered the possibility of a positive feedback loop - that the first primals would be very difficult to summon (explaining why Travanchet went after the horn), but as more conflict arose, as the aether became more imbalanced, as Hydaelyn grew weaker, and chaos reigned, it would become easier and easier for mortals to tread on the domain of gods and cause will to manifest. It seemed like perhaps that was part of the point - that usually creation via volition is the domain of the Crystal, but that when Her laws were weakened, mankind could trespass on this act. I haven't revisited that possibility in a long, long time but Ga Bu, Susano, and Lakshmi have put it back in my mind.

[Alberel]

I'm hoping this is something explored in the future. We don't see any Ascian influence there now, but we're late to this party. Othard was summoning primals and going to war over twenty-five years ago. The Source's overlord was (presumably) ganked and his minions vaporized or scattered to the wind this year. Did Ascians play a part back then? Are we seeing lingering effects?

There's also the less likely possibility that some remain and are just working unseen. The Ascians have almost always remained hidden and worked in secret; the first thing you hear about them in 2.00 is that the Scions can't fathom why they would be so brazen now. Maybe with Lahabrea missing and Elidibus focusing on major players, there are still a few black-masks wandering around acting as they did in the old days.

Well we do at least know that the Ascians have a presence in Othard as the whole Shisui of the Violet Tides timeline traces back to the appearance of a rather obvious black robed individual. The Ascians work to encourage deliberate summoning, however, and yet these cases were both seemingly unintentional. I suppose it's possible that the Ascians may have still had a hand in the summonings in other ways though.

Much earlier in the game, between Minfilia's assertion that primals cannot exist when the world is stable, Lahabrea's rambling about the natural order coming undone, and the (then unconfirmed) theory that primals were just throughtforms, I considered the possibility of a positive feedback loop - that the first primals would be very difficult to summon (explaining why Travanchet went after the horn), but as more conflict arose, as the aether became more imbalanced, as Hydaelyn grew weaker, and chaos reigned, it would become easier and easier for mortals to tread on the domain of gods and cause will to manifest. It seemed like perhaps that was part of the point - that usually creation via volition is the domain of the Crystal, but that when Her laws were weakened, mankind could trespass on this act. I haven't revisited that possibility in a long, long time but Ga Bu, Susano, and Lakshmi have put it back in my mind.

This is sort of where my thoughts have been wandering as well. The act of summoning alone furthers the goals of the Ascians, that much is clear. They never really care when we strike down a primal. We know that the aether used to summon a primal is corrupted somehow but we've never had an explanation for what that corruption entails. Maybe this is the result? Aether that is more easily shaped by will? I have to wonder then if slaying primals is also part of the Ascians' plan. Summoning a primal corrupts the aether used but only slaying it returns that corruption to the lifestream...

[Anonymoose]

Well we do at least know that the Ascians have a presence in Othard as the whole Shisui of the Violet Tides timeline traces back to the appearance of a rather obvious black robed individual.

Precisely! While we can't be sure what's natural conflict, what's the lingering effect of potential meddling 25~ years ago, and what's fresh meddling, (in order of probability) we do have at least one example that shows that it is happening.

I have to wonder then if slaying primals is also part of the Ascians' plan.

Even if we turn out to be incorrect about a feedback loop existing, primals being slain is definitely part of the Ascian agenda, now and in the past.

When confronted with something that runs contrary to faith, it's more likely that the zealous will find ways to excuse, justify, or ignore that thing before they will actually cede their beliefs. The defeat of a primal thus only spurs its worshippers to reach for more power. It was only defeated because it needed more crystals. It was only defeated because it didn't have enough prayers. It was only defeated because it needs more worshippers. It was handicapped somehow. More aether, more prayer, more tempering, summon it again.

In this era, we were doing Lahabrea's work for him, which is one reason he arrogantly toyed with us rather than take us out when he had a better chance at it. He didn't even have to pit the primals against each other or an empire to make the tribes desire stronger incarnations, we just zipped from place to place inspiring it on our own.

This is why, when Elidibus wanted to break the tribes' faiths and redirect their beliefs, the Warriors of Darkness were meant to inspire incredibly strong primals and effortlessly slay them - to show there was no excuse, but their gods were insufficient.

Everything just seems to work regardless of whether the feedback loop is a thing, which makes it even harder to pin down. And that's to say nothing of the fact that the Ascians only need to give knowledge one time; it can be used immediately or years later, once or repeatedly. If you didn't know about the history of the Paragons acting in 1562 up through 1572, the Ascians wouldn't have seemed to have been involved in even Titan, Garuda, or Ifrit (aside from the latter name-dropping them).

[Okamimaru]

Perhaps susano isnt a false primal like the others we've faced... maybe he's the real deal

[Anonymoose]

The points in above posts are what make it so difficult.

The journal says he is a primal, implying this just a deiform wearing a kami's visage.

Unfortunately, for reasons beyond your knowing, two of the sacred treasures stored in the isle's vault “reacted” to the presence of the Yasakani–no–Magatama, summoning forth from the aether the great kami Susano─a primal by another name.

And while the above says that the Magatami did this on its own (SOMEHOW), Triple Triad also says the Kojin summoned Susano at some point.

A deity summoned forth by the Kojin, Susano resided in three sacred receptacles. As well as being one of the greatest kami, this entity is also revered as the god of the sea. The Lord of the Revel rejoices in both battle and banquet, meeting all challengers with jubilant and unrestrained ferocity.

[Grimr]

Well what is a primal without worshipers? The Kojin worshiped the divine relics or kami. Thoradin became King Thoradin from prayers of ishguardians. Phoenix same thing. I am sure if there isn't aether crystals in close proximity certain primals can draw aether from their surroundings to compensate. The only limiter with susano was he had to have 3 relics in order to be summoned. He had everything a normal primal well as much normal as you could call certain ones required for summoning. Base materials prayers and aether.

[Rawrz]

Thinking about it. I'm gonna say that rituals aren't truely necessary for a summon. All a ritual does is focalize faith.

Every summoning, in some way is different.

The same primal can be summoned multiple ways for example. One requires crystals the other requires crystals and a sacrifice of the faithful.

"But the ascians taught them how to..." If i lived in a world where primals existed and I was scared Id believe a voodoo man when he tells me that if we kill someone that they will be our salvation through summoning a god to protect my people and myself. Id have to believe that I wasnt killing a friend just for him to die. If i was a terrified beastman/other.

The belief of the kojin is that within luxurious treasures lives spirits. Susano embodies the free living, "revelling", nature of the noble kamis. For generations they have told themselves that reuniting the treasures would please the kami within them. If even one kojin saw that they had been reunited and had one desperate thought of the wol intruding on what is essentially the Kojin la Vatican, it stirred the aether that had been within the artifacts, building exponentially since the moment they were seperated. Thus the Powerp----Susano was born!

Just a thought.

[Kedan]

I'm curious how the creatures created by Omega are related to primals, if at all. They are wholesale crated from Aether based on legends, so there was no initial 'pattern' in the lifestream, if you will, yet they can clearly manifest in the real world as sentient beings.

Also, since I'm new to the Lore boards and the discussion, I'm wondering if someone can point me to a quick primer on where the 12 fit in as they relate to primals.