The Summoning of Susano

[Grimr]

Well what is a primal without worshipers? The Kojin worshiped the divine relics or kami. Thoradin became King Thoradin from prayers of ishguardians. Phoenix same thing. I am sure if there isn't aether crystals in close proximity certain primals can draw aether from their surroundings to compensate. The only limiter with susano was he had to have 3 relics in order to be summoned. He had everything a normal primal well as much normal as you could call certain ones required for summoning. Base materials prayers and aether.

[Rawrz]

Thinking about it. I'm gonna say that rituals aren't truely necessary for a summon. All a ritual does is focalize faith.

Every summoning, in some way is different.

The same primal can be summoned multiple ways for example. One requires crystals the other requires crystals and a sacrifice of the faithful.

"But the ascians taught them how to..." If i lived in a world where primals existed and I was scared Id believe a voodoo man when he tells me that if we kill someone that they will be our salvation through summoning a god to protect my people and myself. Id have to believe that I wasnt killing a friend just for him to die. If i was a terrified beastman/other.

The belief of the kojin is that within luxurious treasures lives spirits. Susano embodies the free living, "revelling", nature of the noble kamis. For generations they have told themselves that reuniting the treasures would please the kami within them. If even one kojin saw that they had been reunited and had one desperate thought of the wol intruding on what is essentially the Kojin la Vatican, it stirred the aether that had been within the artifacts, building exponentially since the moment they were seperated. Thus the Powerp----Susano was born!

Just a thought.

[Grayve]

Regarding Lakshmi, I think her role in the story was to really drive home the point that you don't need crystals to summon a primal. Any source of aether will do and in this case I think it was simply the death of the broodmother's daughter that provided it.

Unless I'm completely misremembering, it is stated the gems and materials used to craft their jewelry is aether attuned, and that is what was used for the summoning.

[Kedan]

I'm curious how the creatures created by Omega are related to primals, if at all. They are wholesale crated from Aether based on legends, so there was no initial 'pattern' in the lifestream, if you will, yet they can clearly manifest in the real world as sentient beings.

Also, since I'm new to the Lore boards and the discussion, I'm wondering if someone can point me to a quick primer on where the 12 fit in as they relate to primals.

[WyrahFhurrst]

I think the key to Susano's formation as a deiform is found in the Kojin's dialogue on kami. If a deiform's origins requires an original spirit to evolve into said deiform, then Susano's original spirit may well have been something akin to an Elemental that found the three relics to be a better housing for it than a rock or tree. From there, the only thing required for its transformation is faith, which we see plenty of evidence of from both tribes of Kojin. As for aether, my guess is that the sea itself is teaming with the water elemental aether, or that the fact that if an Elemental became the Primal, then it retained its ability to utilize surrounding aether in its summoning.

This theory could possibly hold true for Zantetsuken, as it summons Odin in a similar way to the three regalia summoning Susano.

[Lutefisk]

Apologies for the super late reply, trying to unlearn years of muscle memory makes for a forgetful mind.

Unless I'm completely misremembering, it is stated the gems and materials used to craft their jewelry is aether attuned, and that is what was used for the summoning.

After a few rereads through the relevant quests I guess I'll have to concede to that, seems like I glazed over that detail in the early morning hours when I was going through that part of the main scenario. And yet I can't shake off the feeling that Anamika's death played the bigger part in the summoning. Perhaps I jumped the gun with assuming that it alone was enough to call forth a primal in this occasion, but it certainly feels like a natural evolution of the concept that was first introduced in 2.1 and later revisited in 3.4/3.5.

But to reiterate the point I was trying to make in my original post, it feels like Stormblood is trying to break away from the rigid, predictable cycle of ”beastmen hoard crystals, beastmen summon primal.” What if you could no longer predict when someone might feel like pulling a primal out of their hat by merely monitoring the trade of crystals? It could very well be that we'll never see a 100% crystal-free soylent primal, but I think the possibility is there.

[Dark-Saviour]

The biggest disappointment with Susano for me is that he didn't really feel tied to the Kojin (or his origin in-game). It felt like Stoned Ravanah and the way it was handled even reeked of, "We need a primal somewhere in here and we want to use Susano, so sure, why not." Had they made him more like Gilgamesh (from F/SN, not so much FF) in that he fought more by spamming/showing off sacred treasures and legendary items, then I'd be less negative about it, but eh...

But to reiterate the point I was trying to make in my original post, it feels like Stormblood is trying to break away from the rigid, predictable cycle of ”beastmen hoard crystals, beastmen summon primal.” What if you could no longer predict when someone might feel like pulling a primal out of their hat by merely monitoring the trade of crystals? It could very well be that we'll never see a 100% crystal-free soylent primal, but I think the possibility is there.

Thordan. He used the Eye instead of Crystals to get what he needed.

So there are alternate avenues. Maybe someone just starts siphoning the lifestream?

[Alberel]

Susano'o is interesting because he suggests that primals are not entirely fabrications summoned by Ascian-taught rituals, but rather a natural phenomenon that can occur under the right conditions. Nobody wanted or tried to summon Susano'o - it just kind of happened, which does fit with his role as a(n unpredictable) storm god but doesn't fit what we know of primal summonings.

Curiously, Susano'o also doesn't seem to be possessed of the malice or desire to temper Ascian-taught primals do. He simply does what he is said to do - revel in combat, wild and pure and forever free. I'd be very interested to see more such "natural" primals, and would wager we'll see Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu during 4.x.

I have to wonder if this difference is simply due to us being in a place less affected by Ascian manipulation, or if it is a symptom of something much larger. The ease with which Susano and Lakshmi were accidentally summoned is extremely problematic as it renders the Scions' efforts against primals somewhat pointless. It also doesn't fit in with our understanding of Eorzea being rife with primals due to its aether concentration; it should be harder to summon outside Eorzea, not easier.

Is it possible that something has changed that is making summoning easier across Hydaelyn? I ask this because there is an unresolved plot thread that was brought up again in the MSQ: the strange aether readings in the Shroud discovered immediately prior to Wilred's death. The MSQ prompts us to remember this (in Rhalgr's Reach IIRC) so it seems to me that it may hold some significance going forward...

[Anonymoose]

I have to wonder if this difference is simply due to us being in a place less affected by Ascian manipulation

I'm hoping this is something explored in the future. We don't see any Ascian influence there now, but we're late to this party. Othard was summoning primals and going to war over twenty-five years ago. The Source's overlord was (presumably) ganked and his minions vaporized or scattered to the wind this year. Did Ascians play a part back then? Are we seeing lingering effects?

There's also the less likely possibility that some remain and are just working unseen. The Ascians have almost always remained hidden and worked in secret; the first thing you hear about them in 2.00 is that the Scions can't fathom why they would be so brazen now. Maybe with Lahabrea missing and Elidibus focusing on major players, there are still a few black-masks wandering around acting as they did in the old days.

Is it possible that something has changed that is making summoning easier across Hydaelyn?

Much earlier in the game, between Minfilia's assertion that primals cannot exist when the world is stable, Lahabrea's rambling about the natural order coming undone, and the (then unconfirmed) theory that primals were just throughtforms, I considered the possibility of a positive feedback loop - that the first primals would be very difficult to summon (explaining why Travanchet went after the horn), but as more conflict arose, as the aether became more imbalanced, as Hydaelyn grew weaker, and chaos reigned, it would become easier and easier for mortals to tread on the domain of gods and cause will to manifest. It seemed like perhaps that was part of the point - that usually creation via volition is the domain of the Crystal, but that when Her laws were weakened, mankind could trespass on this act. I haven't revisited that possibility in a long, long time but Ga Bu, Susano, and Lakshmi have put it back in my mind.

[Ametrine]

On Susano, I thought his summoning to be much the same as Odin, too.

Odin is curious in that, despite lacking a circle of "worshippers," their is still the legend surrounding him and his sword. Omega's use of old fairytail creatures made manifest adds a bit to it.

People don't "worship" these ideas, the character and myth, but people still think about them. Children believe in fairytails, adults love to relay them. Odin could be the star of a ghost story.

It's a thought.