DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[Falar]

Unpopular opinion but tbh I'd prefer if all the tanks did the same DPS or something within like 3-5% dps difference. I'd rather the proper distribution of useful utilities as a balancing factor instead.

I'd just prefer to win through my own merits rather than because I played (Insert Highest DPS job in X role here).

Ok I'm done bye ._.

That would never be the case.

Terrible players could play the most overtuned class and still fail, while good players can succeed with the most undertuned.

These patch notes felt like a slap in the face.

[EusisLandale]

1. The rotation is really repetitive and bland with just 1 DPS combo. People currently compare DRK to 2.0 PLD.
1. Bring Scourge back as a 3rd combo finisher after Syphon Strike.

The difference being that we have more things on the side to do than Paladin did back then. And Scourge really just is not coming back, between Bloodspiller and Darkside's buff it's been baked into the Job without the need for constant management.

2. The class is noticeably squishier then the other tanks, especially before level 70 without TBN.
2. Make Dark Mind reduce both physical and magical damage.

It's going to take more than just one skill and adjustment to touch this problem up. Give Blood Price a mitigation effect to put it in line with Blood Weapon. make Dark Mind apply to all damage, improve The Blackest Night's duration, allow Souleater to heal even if only at half the rate out of Grit, and alter Shadow Wall to have two of three minimum; more power, a better duration, or a lower recast time.

3. Unleashed is useless after Abyssal Drain.
3. Either delete Unleashed and give us Abyssal Drain at level 6, or give us a trait at 56 that improves Unleashed and makes it into Abyssal Drain.
Not much to talk about here, having 2 AOE skills that do the same thing is redundant.

Unleashed is Power Slash to Abyssal Drain's Souleater. You're looking at x20.6 enmity vs x5. It would be more reasonable to ask for Abyssal Drain to lose its enmity modifier rather than to ask for them to be merged.

4. Dark Passenger is hardly worth using, its very underwhelming.
4. Make Dark Passenger free and make the DA effect baseline.
It makes it always worth using

They don't want it to be always worth using, they made that pretty clear with the cost and potency adjustments. Dark Passenger is an early game tool to weave in for some damage before you get all your aoe tools, and a late game trash mitigation tool. The change to Quietus allows for us to get into a period where we're overwhelmed with MP when paired with Blood Weapon. A single BW Quietus on 5 targets pays off a DA DP.
About the only way you could convince them to make Dark Passenger free and to have its Dark Arts boost naturally is if that comes with the condition of stripping its potency. Congrats, you got Line Flash.

5. Blood Weapon and Blood Price is unnecessary button bloat.
5. Make Blood Weapon usable in Grit, and merge the effects of Blood Price into Blood Weapon.
Another idea is to merge Anticipation into Blood Weapon to justify the Blood Price effect thematically and to increase desperately needed Physical mitigation

Dark Knights are hardly suffering from any button bloat. No, it would be far better to leave them separate. And no linking them up to the same recast time like Warrior stuff either. Again though, Blood Price definitely needs to be given mitigation. That puts it thematically in line with Blood Weapon, MP+Blood Generation and DPS/Mitigation.

[Link594]

The difference being that we have more things on the side to do than Paladin did back then. And Scourge really just is not coming back, between Bloodspiller and Darkside's buff it's been baked into the Job without the need for constant management.

So things can be readjusted, I'm not advocating for a DPS buff, just for a less bland rotation.

It's going to take more than just one skill and adjustment to touch this problem up. Give Blood Price a mitigation effect to put it in line with Blood Weapon. make Dark Mind apply to all damage, improve The Blackest Night's duration, allow Souleater to heal even if only at half the rate out of Grit, and alter Shadow Wall to have two of three minimum; more power, a better duration, or a lower recast time.

While I don't disagree with some of those suggestions, the biggest problem is that Dark Mind is very situational and DRK doesn't have as many tool as the other tanks to mitigate Physical damage.

Unleashed is Power Slash to Abyssal Drain's Souleater. You're looking at x20.6 enmity vs x5. It would be more reasonable to ask for Abyssal Drain to lose its enmity modifier rather than to ask for them to be merged.

Unleashed is basically a DRK version of flash that does 50 potency. It really is redundant in the grand scheme of things. And that argument doesn't really hold. Unleashed is not as useful as Power Slash is. If you are using unleashed, you are pretty much wasting the GCD.

They don't want it to be always worth using, they made that pretty clear with the cost and potency adjustments. Dark Passenger is an early game tool to weave in for some damage before you get all your aoe tools, and a late game trash mitigation tool. The change to Quietus allows for us to get into a period where we're overwhelmed with MP when paired with Blood Weapon. A single BW Quietus on 5 targets pays off a DA DP.
About the only way you could convince them to make Dark Passenger free and to have its Dark Arts boost naturally is if that comes with the condition of stripping its potency. Congrats, you got Line Flash.

Except Dark Passenger is completely useless. DP costs the same amount of MP as DA, so if you are really capped on MP, and you can't afford to wait for the next Abyssal Drain, you're better off spending it on DA. The blind really doesn't mesh well with Blood Price, and we don't need that mitigation if we get other mitigation you or I mentioned buffed. When I meant naturally have the DA boost, I meant the potency boost. A similar ability would be Howling Fist from Monk.

Dark Knights are hardly suffering from any button bloat. No, it would be far better to leave them separate. And no linking them up to the same recast time like Warrior stuff either. Again though, Blood Price definitely needs to be given mitigation. That puts it thematically in line with Blood Weapon, MP+Blood Generation and DPS/Mitigation.

Why leave them separate? They both have the same function and are mutually exclusive. I also don't want them on the same recast, I would much prefer to just have the effects combined. 1 button for MP regen, there is no need for 2 mutually exclusive ones that accomplish the same thing. This also goes back with Unleashed/Abyssal Drain argument.

As I said before, these solutions are pretty common ones that people are suggesting. In this very thread, in the forums, and elsewhere. DRK has too many underwhelming abilities and too many redundancies in their kit.

[EusisLandale]

So things can be readjusted, I'm not advocating for a DPS buff, just for a less bland rotation.

It's only bland if you're looking at just the core of it and not the whole picture. Dark Knight is less a rotation based Job and more a priority based one. Just slapping in a third combo just because the others do isn't really going to help matters.

While I don't disagree with some of those suggestions, the biggest problem is that Dark Mind is very situational and DRK doesn't have as many tool as the other tanks to mitigate Physical damage.

Dark Mind being situational is fine. Dark Mind being situational when we have next to nothing outside of those situations is the bigger problem in the long run. Something needs to happen, be it DM going all damage types or some other changes.

Unleashed is basically a DRK version of flash that does 50 potency. It really is redundant in the grand scheme of things. And that argument doesn't really hold. Unleashed is not as useful as Power Slash is. If you are using unleashed, you are pretty much wasting the GCD.

Unleash and Power Slash are both generally cheaper, weaker, high enmity alternatives to the more expensive and powerful Abyssal Drain and Souleater. Should we roll Power Slash into Souleater just because one is wasted GCDs outside of the opening of a fight? Because that's the same place Unleash is at.

Except Dark Passenger is completely useless. DP costs the same amount of MP as DA, so if you are really capped on MP, and you can't afford to wait for the next Abyssal Drain, you're better off spending it on DA. The blind really doesn't mesh well with Blood Price, and we don't need that mitigation if we get other mitigation you or I mentioned buffed.

You don't pair it with Blood Price. You pair it with Blood Weapon.

When I meant naturally have the DA boost, I meant the potency boost. A similar ability would be Howling Fist from Monk.

They put out the nerfs to Dark Passenger specifically to avoid having us use multiple area attacks in single target situations. They're not going to give us a free oGCD instant 240 AoE

Why leave them separate? They both have the same function and are mutually exclusive. I also don't want them on the same recast, I would much prefer to just have the effects combined. 1 button for MP regen, there is no need for 2 mutually exclusive ones that accomplish the same thing. This also goes back with Unleashed/Abyssal Drain argument.

As it stands right now, you can have 30-46 seconds of extra MP and Blood generation. 15-23 if you're the OT. The function may be the same, but the method is different; Blood Weapon rewards offensive playstyles, Blood Price rewards defensive playstyles. And if you wish to make the argument of rolling things together based on function rather than purpose and method, I'll again say to just roll Power Slash's combo into Souleater's. Let's just roll all the tank enmity combos into the damage combos. But this is of course an insane suggestion.

As I said before, these solutions are pretty common ones that people are suggesting. In this very thread, in the forums, and elsewhere. DRK has too many underwhelming abilities and too many redundancies in their kit.

Common suggestions do not equal good suggestions. The constant hyperfocus on tank DPS being a pretty good example, all the changes this patch were to accommodate those issues rather than the more pressing matters of mitigation and utility.

[Link594]

It's only bland if you're looking at just the core of it and not the whole picture. Dark Knight is less a rotation based Job and more a priority based one. Just slapping in a third combo just because the others do isn't really going to help matters.

Dark Knight isn't a priority based system at all. Your rotation is very simple, its Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, Souleater. You Bloodspiller when you have enough blood gauge, and you dart arts when you have enough MP. You use Plunge and Salted Earth and Carve and Spit on recast and thats it. It doesn't matter when you Bloodspiller or what you Dart Arts, (with the exception of Carve and Spit) What priority are you talking about? The only priority in the entire class is Dark Arts Carve and Spit. As long as you aren't capping on MP or Blood, you are doing as much as the class allows. What is the whole picture for you?

Dark Mind being situational is fine. Dark Mind being situational when we have next to nothing outside of those situations is the bigger problem in the long run. Something needs to happen, be it DM going all damage types or some other changes.

That is exactly my point. And my suggestion is that the "something" be DM going all damage types. It is a very simple fix that goes a long way. You could change whatever else you wanted, but the magical limitation of DM is a huge contributor to DRK's mitigation weakness.

Unleash and Power Slash are both generally cheaper, weaker, high enmity alternatives to the more expensive and powerful Abyssal Drain and Souleater. Should we roll Power Slash into Souleater just because one is wasted GCDs outside of the opening of a fight? Because that's the same place Unleash is at.

Except its not where Unleash is at. You aren't supposed to use Unleash at all, are you really telling me you use Unleash to establish enmity? You can take it off your bars and your performance wouldn't drop. Power Slash has a use, Unleash doesn't. They aren't comparable at all.

You don't pair it with Blood Price. You pair it with Blood Weapon.

You don't pair it at all, Dark Passenger is a waste of MP. Some people don't even have it on their bars. Same with Unleash.

They put out the nerfs to Dark Passenger specifically to avoid having us use multiple area attacks in single target situations. They're not going to give us a free oGCD instant 240 AoE

and the nerf to Dark Passenger is a mistake. something needs to change with Dark Passenger. It's useless. I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here, that Dark Passenger is fine? It's by far DRK's most underwhelming ability, even if you wanted to argue that it had a use, its use is faar more situational then Dark Mind.

As it stands right now, you can have 30-46 seconds of extra MP and Blood generation. 15-23 if you're the OT. The function may be the same, but the method is different; Blood Weapon rewards offensive playstyles, Blood Price rewards defensive playstyles. And if you wish to make the argument of rolling things together based on function rather than purpose and method, I'll again say to just roll Power Slash's combo into Souleater's. Let's just roll all the tank enmity combos into the damage combos. But this is of course an insane suggestion.

Except Power Slash combo and Souleater have different functions. One is to establish threat and the other is to do damage. What would you do if you wanted to do damage without establishing threat....like an OT does?

Common suggestions do not equal good suggestions. The constant hyperfocus on tank DPS being a pretty good example, all the changes this patch were to accommodate those issues rather than the more pressing matters of mitigation and utility.

Common suggestions are usually good suggestions more often then not. I won't argue more then this, as this doesn't really relate to DRK.

[EusisLandale]

Dark Knight isn't a priority based system at all. Your rotation is very simple, its Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, Souleater. You Bloodspiller when you have enough blood gauge, and you dart arts when you have enough MP. You use Plunge and Salted Earth and Carve and Spit on recast and thats it. It doesn't matter when you Bloodspiller or what you Dart Arts, (with the exception of Carve and Spit) What priority are you talking about? The only priority in the entire class is Dark Arts Carve and Spit. As long as you aren't capping on MP or Blood, you are doing as much as the class allows. What is the whole picture for you?

You have 50 Blood. Blood Weapon/Price have 7 seconds left. Delirium is going to be ready to use in 5 seconds. Do you Bloodspiller? You have 2400 MP, your last hit was Syphon Strike, Carve and Spit is not ready yet, The Blackest Night is. What do you press? You have 50 Blood, You have less than 1320 MP, you have 4 targets. What do you press?

Except its not where Unleash is at. You aren't supposed to use Unleash at all, are you really telling me you use Unleash to establish enmity? You can take it off your bars and your performance wouldn't drop. Power Slash has a use, Unleash doesn't. They aren't comparable at all.

Unleash is a x 20.6 enmity move. Abyssal Drain is x5. 1030 vs 600. I will Unmend pull if things are too spread, I will Abyssal Drain pull otherwise, the first ability used once everything is in range is Unleash. Possibly twice, depending on what sort of DPS I have. After that, I will Abyssal Drain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/enmity

You don't pair it at all, Dark Passenger is a waste of MP. Some people don't even have it on their bars. Same with Unleash.

During a Blood _ Quietus spam period on trash you are generating FAR more MP than you can spend on Dark Arts Abyssal Drains alone. You could Dark Arts Quietus itself, but then Dark Passenger is worth more potency at that point, and DADP worth even more.
The MP is more wasted by letting yourself hit 100% and gain nothing. You could also just keep doing ADs and not bother with Quietus, but then you're depriving yourself of raw potency, MP, self healing, and mitigation.
Some people don't have Limit Break on their bars just because the purpose of it is scarce. Doesn't make them right.

Except Power Slash combo and Souleater have different functions. One is to establish threat and the other is to do damage. What would you do if you wanted to do damage without establishing threat....like an OT does?

If all the tanks only have enmity combos because we rolled everything together to save buttons, what does it matter? Again, it's an insane suggestion I admit, it's just also the logical conclusion of you wanting to roll things into one for being even slightly similar.

[DWolfwood]

Hello Yoshida and Dev Team!

Right now, I'm very unsatisfied with DRK and have changed to WAR until DRK is changed. Here are the most important issues I believe DRK has in 4.05:

1. Living Dead is poorly tuned
2. Shadow Wall is poorly tuned
3. Dark Mind is situational
4. Poor passive mitigation
5. Poor self healing
6. DPS is still a bit low

Here is how I propose addressing them:

1. Either reduce the recast to 180 seconds to be on par with Holmgang, or change this ability entirely. I would prefer you allowed us to summon a Shadow clone that took all enmity from us for 6 seconds while auto-attacking and then gave all enmity and debuffs back to us. Make this recast 5 minutes and lower Hallowed Ground's recast to 5 minutes as well.
2. Reduce the recast on this to 120 seconds.
3. Make this affect Physical & Magical damage. Increase the recast to 90 seconds.
4. Give us a trait [Dread Spikes] that occasionally absorbs HP from an enemy. Balance this against PLD's shield. I've no wish to make DRK overpowered, just equal and unique.
5. Give us an ability similar to Bulwark that increases our Dread Spikes activation rate by 60%.
6. Give us another small potency increase

Thank you for reading and I hope you will take this to heart because I love the job and would like to see it on par with PLD without needing to nerf PLD.

[EusisLandale]

I would prefer you allowed us to summon a Shadow clone that provided Cover and took all enmity from us for 6 seconds while auto-attacking and then gave all enmity and debuffs back to us.

That's a bit redundant there. If the copy provides Cover for its duration then there's little point in it also taking enmity from us.

[SyzzleSpark]

I feel like we are meme in the dev team's offices because people can't, just physically can't stop asking for FFXI throwbacks like Dread Spikes. Its probably why they don't take us seriously.

-_-

[Duelle]

I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring as well:

- Dark Passenger: Change the Dark Arts effect to a 3s Stun. If this is too strong for an attack on a 30s cooldown, increase the cooldown to 45s.
- Shadow Wall: Reduce the cooldown to 120s.
- Delirium: Allow it to also enhance Blood Price (Blood Price decreases damage taken) and Blood Weapon (either increase mana generated per hit or increase attack speed even further) upon use.
- Living Dead: Replace it with something else. If there's thematic concerns because of what happens in the lv50 DRK quest, here's a suggestion to cover that:

50 Shadow Guardian - Transfer all damage taken for the next 10s to your shadow. Upon expiring, receive accumulated damage over 15s. Accumulated damage cannot be greater than your max HP. Effect expires upon end of duration or if accumulated damage is equal to your max HP. Cooldown: 180s.

Spoiler:

Living Dead is clearly a call out to Fray and his role in the 30-50 DRK quests. Shadow Guardian is instead a call out to your inner darkness, who via this skill would take damage for you for a bit before transferring it to you (because your inner darkness is part of you, after all).

I know none of these address the lacking mitigation pre-70, but it's all I got for now.

-----------------------------------

I feel like we are meme in the dev team's offices because people can't, just physically can't stop asking for FFXI throwbacks like Dread Spikes. Its probably why they don't take us seriously.

Dread Spikes did work as a mitigation cooldown of sorts, since the whole point of the spell was to negate damage so that you wouldn't die in the middle of pulling aggro with Souleater active. If we transferred it to FFXIV, it'd probably process damage taken and then heal the damage, effectively negating it, though I admit that's a little too close to the ineffectual mitigation model WAR had when ARR launched.

And it could be worse. We could be looking at Death Knights, Shadow Knights or Dark Avengers. Though I do wonder if DRKs would even want Bone Shield (stacking mitigation that can be gained/refreshed through the use of a specific attack), Icebound Fortitude (DRK already has this via Shadow Wall), Vampyric Blood (basically the bonuses of Defiance but in the form of a cooldown), Dancing Rune Weapon and the Death Strike+Blood Shield mechanic (DRK already has this, though it's split between Souleater and TBN).