DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[Xenosan]

I agree with both your and Craster assessments, my thoughts come from the same reasonings:

- Dark Mind: 30% reduction should be base. Dark Arts extends duration. Accentuate the contrast of effects of DA+DM and TBN. I don't think any mitigation cooldown should be made stronger with Dark Arts, TBN has that capability covered. DA on defensive cooldowns should prolong their duration or add utility.

If cooldowns like DM also had an added utility effect, like Blood Price's MP procs on being hit, then DA use on these CDs in the right circumstance could be a payoff dis-similar but akin to TBN's Blood return (not as gainful yet also not being an all-or-nothing return).

Dark Mind working on all damage types would be great, too. I really want that. But I don't think Dark Mind is going to get that change.

So rename Dark Mind.

Rename it Shadow Wall. See how I got to here?

Shadow Wall, 60sec recast, 10 sec duration
*Partial MP restored when attacked.
*Mitigates 30% of incoming damage,
*Dark Arts effect: Extends duration to 15-20 seconds,

If DRK is keeping a magical only niche, I think it needs to be less relevant. It would be better for the that niche Cooldown to be the cost-free, 10-second ability with a 3 minute recast - giving DRK a small(er) edge in magical, but otherwise, it isn't entirely missed.

And if mitigation strength is base, and DA just extends duration, I'd think you'd see about the same DA/TBN use as now (assuming magical fight) - or less. But because you'd either DA+cooldown for sustaining mitigation, or cooldown+TBN for strength against tankbusters, you'd rarely - if ever - use both simultaneously (die DA+DM+TBN).

Resource based mitigation isn't a playstyle, its a handicap, particularly when our DPS is resource based as well.

But I can see the potential pro to this as much as the con,

Regarding Dark Passenger,

reverting it to 3.x so that it's a small potency gain in single target over DA is one solution, and the simplest. What I would also consider, which I think is where there will be disagreement. What I would like to see, overall, a distinct niche for each of DRKs 3 MP cost abilities: {TBN, DA, & DP} (DA vs TBN already mentioned). They are the trifecta imo.

To that end, I'd be okay with DP being a ~20 potency loss in single target (same or closer damage to DA damage, 120-140, but no Slashing debuff) with a Blind base (or some better utility effect, a flat 300-400 potency heal for example), but no Dark Arts effect,

but most significantly: a 10 second or less recast (even as low as Dark Arts' 2 second recast).

There is little point to a recast limitation when DP use already eats 25% of your mana.

Lustrate isn't better than Tetra/ED because it has a 1 second recast.

And there is no point to a Dark Arts effect on DP when it itself functions as an alternative to a DA. (Again assuming not an attempt to revert it to 3.x)

Also can delete the redundancy of Dark Arts Quietus in this scenario. It already shouldn't exist. But if DRK wants to boost AOE damage, DP is always available and there for that purpose, not a DA effect that does the same thing (for 50 potency less). I'd gladly trade the Quietus DA effect for an in-Grit potency increase like Bloodspiller.

Another feature of this would be DRK would have back at least one MP return action that doesn't consume DA. That is the only grievance I have with SS getting a DA effect. DRK has no way of restoring MP (sans Delirium) without consuming DA in the process. A deliberate but obnoxious trap SE threw on the job I think.

I admit this isn't the in-demand fix for Dark Passenger - especially regarding single target where DPS actually matters for Raid bosses. But I'd look at other abilities first. I'd like Dark Passenger as part of a {DP, DA, TBN} trinity that don't step on one another: DP could fill a hole by replacing DA+SS/SE/PS in multitarget - a better active Berserk for 2+ mobs. It would be a good boost in low level pulls and for 2-4 mob pulls, where DA-AD and Quietus aren't really granting a whole lot as they would a larger pack.

Need more ways to manipulate resources. We can convert MP into Blood (adding Blood gain to DA & DP, like TBN, would be swell - again that {TBN, DA, DP} trifecta), but we can't as easily convert Blood to MP (Delirium, Quietus ... Hey Bloodspiller get with the program).

If Bloodspiller was given some sort of MP recovery forgiveness (if not an outright MP return), than that is all the DPS increase TBN needs imo. TBN already does enough just giving the +50 Blood for BS if BS is buffed.

I'd rather have additional DPS buffs to the lower line of the kit, before Stormblood. Salted Earth is one good soldier that never gets any attention. C&S even could be cranked up.

I think this all illuminates the fact that DRK is a resource job. DPSing SCH can get messy thanks to Miasma II, and Energy Drain being required to prevent OOMP, that does feel similar. But I like that edgy.

And like SCH/SMN, the MP cost of Grit/Darkside activation is as stupid as the steep cost of Summoning pets. What's the hold up SE.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

You keep saying "If DRK is x, then y" where x is readily defined as something that is not actually unique to DRK (being a resource job) or something that the majority of the playerbase doesn't want (shoehorned into magic mitigation niche), and this is where we really disagree. Not only are these not things that are really all that appealing, but they aren't a playstyle. With the exception of resource conversion mechanics like TBN and Delirium, WAR and PLD are every bit as resource-centric now, in 4.x. PLD's ability to block magic now means that DRK isn't the "magic mitigation tank" it is the "anything but physical mitigation tank". These aren't "niches" or "playstyles" that we want.

Now that I think about it, Sheltron is a resource conversion mechanic that works very similarly to TBN. Wanna know why its better? Its better (as a resource converter, anyway) because it pulls from a mitigation resource (Oath Gauge), gives you mitigation, and then rewards DPS (Mana). That's a net positive. TBN pulls from a DPS resource (mana), gives you mitigation, then then rewards a different DPS resource (Blood Gauge) in a quantity that is mathematically inferior to the initial investment.

The "active" tank is a playstyle. It appeals to a statistically significant segment of the playerbase (people that like engaging, fast-paced, "button-mashy" and frenetic gameplay), and actually intrinsically makes DRK feel and play differently from the other tanks, throughout its entire kit, whether DPSing (Dark Arts) or mitigating (TBN). This is what a playstyle is. And it has its advantages.

The problem boils down to this playstyle requiring precision in a way that others don't, and there being no reward for its investment. This is where resources come in. They are the means to the end, not the end itself (i.e. the "playstyle"). However, the end that they are a means to sees no real profit. An active playstyle as I said, requires precision, so this is the pass-fail test that warrants a reward, and currently that reward is paltry at best or nonexistent at worst. Its not like Dissipation on SCH or Hagakure on SAM where you just push a button and boom, resources converted. You must actively time and precisely utilize these abilities. We don't want more resource mechanics until we get more reward for mastering the ones we already have.

There's no need to give everything half a dozen additional effects or stance dependent effects, or to have everything come with strings attached to something else. C&S and Salted Earth could have some more interesting mechanics or just see straight-up buffs, but I'd rather see the resource conversions and reward mechanics that we already have fixed and adjusted before we add new ones.

[NymeriaVelaris]

make TBN a significant DPS gain when used properly

I dont agree with this idea at all.

The Blackest Night is fine as it is. Currently the Bloodspiller you gain from it is (in terms of dps) worth exactly the same as an extra Dark Arts, this is intended and makes sense. (there is a very minimal potency difference outside of Grid, but its super small and doesnt matter at all in the end)

The reason for that is if every TBN proc would be a significant dps gain it would be a nightmare to maximize your dps. You would basically have to use TBN successfully every 15 seconds, even if there are only auto attacks for it to proc (which are already a bit of a hassle because of the small TBN window).
The skill ceiling of the class would go through the roof.
Some people would probably even start to take unnecessary damage just to get an extra TBN proc for more personal DPS.

In the end it would make your DPS dependend on the outgoing damage of the encounter, which is not a good thing.

If you do content outside of current savage raid tier or your item level rises, your TBN shield might not get broken anymore. Or imagine you do 24 raids, you are not tanking, the MT is in another party and you cant use TBN on him.
DRK would do less damage overall, since if they would make the change some other skills will have to be nerfed to make it even.

The reward for using TBN successfully is the mitigation you gain from it without any dps loss. This is also on a very short cooldown and usable outside of tank stance.
TBN is already a powerful and rewarding tool.

I do understand if you wish for more depth for the class in terms of dpsing, but your suggestion is not the right way to do it imo.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I don't expect DRK to get fixed until 7.0 which until then I'm just going to renew game time whenever story updates happen... also going to point out that it took 2 expansions for PLD to get what they needed for AoE damage/crowd control as well as the fixes they needed, I expect they are giving DRK the same treatment and my hopes for 4.1 patch are basically more potency adjustments... and if it's mitigation on defensive cooldowns then it goes from WAR Jr. to PLD Jr. in terms of tanking... DRK should be doing damage down debuffs from their offensive cooldowns and GCD since they fit more thematically with DRK as a tank... but yeah I expect them to fix DRK in 7.0 which by then people would have either stopped playing by 5.0 or just moved to a different class/job entirely as their main...

[SyzzleSpark]

The Blackest Night is fine as it is. Currently the Bloodspiller you gain from it is (in terms of dps)worth exactly the same as an extra Dark Arts, this is intended and makes sense.

Your PPGCD actually falls more often than not when you do this, the math on this is all over the place.

No one is saying it isn't powerful, or that the active playstyle it enables isn't rewarding. But the resource conversion is imbalanced. It was balanced, briefly, between 4.01 and 4.05, and then it was back to being a small loss.

As you point out, its a hassle to use on AAs, which is where it gets used quite often because it is frequently the only form of mitigation during those periods since DRK lacks any other form of high uptime mitigation that isn't better served being used against burst damage/TBs. This is the whole reason why it should be an actual gain, instead of a loss, because if you want mitigation you can and will be using it frequently against AAs, where it may or may not pay off - so its price/payoff ratio could be adjusted. It totally is not the same as an "extra Dark Arts". 50 Blood does not equal 2400 mana in potency.

If you don't believe me, just take a gander at flogs; in optimized runs with a DRK in the party, said DRKs are typically using TBN less than 10 times in as many minutes. I've seen some 9-10 minute encounters with only 5-6 casts of TBN. Basically if you're looking to optimize you actually wanna use it as little as possible - this is something that I think is silly and ought to be fixed. Its part of our core cooldown suite, it isn't some bonus extra safety net for prog or screw-ups like IB or Clemency. Saying you gain mitigation from it without a DPS loss is misinformation.

[Lyth]

Resource-based mitigation can potentially hurt you in two ways. First, there is the net potency loss from spending the resource. Second, there is the opportunity cost of holding on to resources that you would otherwise want to spend. During Infusion/TA/Embolden, you want to spend as much resources as you can in the window. Likewise, prior to phase transitions where there is no active target, you want to burn off as much MP as possible to allow it to tick back up during the intermission. Being asked to hang on to 18-43% of your MP to perform baseline job functions that other tanks do for free is still a dps loss, even if they were to fully reimburse you after the fact.

There are five %DR actions built-in to DRK. Of these, three have attached resource costs: Grit (18%), TBN (25%), and DADM (25%). Two of these are not reimbursable, and the costs are quite high.

The exchange rate of blood and MP is not fixed. It has actually shown a lot of variation over minor patches, and even presently, TBN varies (on average) from a minor dps gain to a minor dps loss when it breaks. The only way for it to be "free" mitigation would be if it reimbursed you for the MP cost when used correctly, but that would probably be a bit boring, and still runs up against the opportunity cost issue that I raised above.

There actually isn't a problem with having TBN being part of dps optimisation. Third Eye/Seigan on SAM can be used to give you minor resource gains if you use it correctly by predicting incoming damage, and that's on a dps job. It seems like predicting damage and counterattacking would make a lot of sense on a tank job. But it shouldn't something that you throw on any auto and expect it to break. TBN's real function is to mitigate cleaves and single hit tankbusters, and these are what you should be rewarded for predicting.

I don't think that TBN single-handedly solves all of DRK's mitigation problems, either. TBN specifically works on single hit tankbusters. How do you think it would fare against a multi-hit physical tankbuster, such as A7S' Uplander Doom? TBN doesn't really work, because a lot of the damage comes from scaling autos. You'd maybe mitigate one hit. DM doesn't work, because it's magical only. You're left with cross-class Rampart, Shadow Wall, and Living Dead. Any fight which places sustained pressure on the tank is not a good fight for DRK, either. I can't channel TBN indefinitely against a consistently hard hitting mob (especially ones which require you to hold out for as long as you can against a stacking buff), and the rest of the cooldown kit is too sparse to offer great alternatives. There are definitely some significant gaps here that need to be addressed.

[NymeriaVelaris]

If you don't believe me, just take a gander at flogs; in optimized runs with a DRK in the party, said DRKs are typically using TBN less than 10 times in as many minutes. I've seen some 9-10 minute encounters with only 5-6 casts of TBN. Basically if you're looking to optimize you actually wanna use it as little as possible - this is something that I think is silly and ought to be fixed. Its part of our core cooldown suite, it isn't some bonus extra safety net for prog or screw-ups like IB or Clemency. Saying you gain mitigation from it without a DPS loss is misinformation.

As it was already said, its a minimal dps loss/gain (low single digit potency differences), not worth talking about. Its the closest thing the devs managed to create. I think its unnecessary to make a fuss about it at this point.
There is no reason not to use TBN successfully as much as possible even while doing speedruns. In the contrary, it also helps healers dps.

The reason why people dont use TBN on cooldown/more often is that it can be risky on non-telegraphed attacks or autos. Also TBN is only 10% on your tank partner, which is nice but basically never needed if they have decent gear and planned out their own cooldowns, which is the case in optimized runs. Casting another DA for the same DPS gain is just easier.

There actually isn't a problem with having TBN being part of dps optimisation. Third Eye/Seigan on SAM can be used to give you minor resource gains if you use it correctly by predicting incoming damage, and that's on a dps job.

There is, as i have pointed out. Your comparison to Third Eye isnt quite fitting. Third Eye just needs the player to be hit by any damage to proc. It will work on any level on any content and since you are never tanking as SAM its very predictable to use, cause you dont deal with autos and you just need one hit. It also doesnt cost any recources. TBN on the other hand needs to break completely in 5 seconds to proc and has costs.

[SyzzleSpark]

I think its unnecessary to make a fuss about it at this point.

TBN is under scrutiny (at least currently, there's 40 pages behind us of discussion on other aspects of DRK as well) because its essentially a second DA, a whole other resource mechanic in and of itself, as well as a mitigation tool. I don't think its unreasonable to look at it more closely when trying to figure out ways to fix DRK's problems (meh DPS ceiling, lopsided mitigation, tons of cost/return resource mechanics that don't really reward you that much for mastering them, etc.)

Feel free to offer some alternative suggestions.

[Mithron]

After spending a lot more time with DRK and getting more used to it, I've grown accustomed to Dark Arts Siphon Strike and The Blackest Night, but I would still rather it be designed in such a way that we have something else to spend our excess MP on rather than Dark Arts Siphon Strike as it really hurts my hand and fingers having to keep up with how fast you need to press buttons as DRK, especially when Blood Weapon Delirium get going. This problem will only get worse as we get higher and higher skill speed, so I think we should start thinking about a cap to skill/spell speed and design around that so things don't go too fast.

[Eyvhokan]

DA has its own 2s cooldown so that will be limited in itself.

I bind DA to 'q' which is very available for me to hit easily, which might be something to consider.