DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

I don't recall ever suggesting a buff to DRK based on its performance in farm parties or speed clears.

Sarcasm this poorly veiled only has any impact against an argument that actually happened. What I have stated many times is that the job is too over-reliant on TBN, an ability that by design is intended to stop mitigating damage as quickly as possible (so as to make it resource efficient, or close to it), has no cooldowns that last longer than 10 seconds, and has the most healing intensive invuln combined with the worst personal healing sustain. If we're talking about farming/speed clears, then what DRK actually needs is higher DPS and for the cooldown that constitutes the vast majority of its personal mitigation (TBN) to not be a DPS loss. In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a reason to take a DRK into an optimized parse run.

When talking about prog (and the more risk-averse playstyle that people will adopt at that time), I believe a WAR/PLD comp is still the safest option. DRK just doesn't bring anything significant to the table unless SE props it up with magic-packed raids, which is one of the complaints this thread is addressing.

You quoting my statement about IB as if it is something meme-worthy is really telling; IB really IS one of the most powerful abilities in the game, for what it does, and I'd be hard pressed to find anyone that progress-raids in this game that disagrees. Just because one waits until they're 10-20 ilvls overgeared before they start clearing and farming content doesn't make an ability like IB objectively useless.

[Accelerating]

If we're talking about farming/speed clears, then what DRK actually needs is higher DPS and for the cooldown that constitutes the vast majority of its personal mitigation (TBN) to not be a DPS loss. In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a reason to take a DRK into an optimized parse run.

I agree that DRK is probably the worst tank for speed clear. And even though TBN is a really small personal dps loss in most cases, it is easily a raidwide dps gain if the healers can spend more time casting offensive spell as a result.

When talking about prog [...] DRK just doesn't bring anything significant to the table

But TBN is huge in progression: It's an IB every 15 seconds with almost no cost. And it's a shiled (unlike IB) so it can actually safe in those dire situations where the healers are busy and can't heal you in time for the next auto attack.

We both agree that DRK somewhat lacks both offense and defense. But I don't understand why DRK needs a skill that works like IB (a defensive CD with a gigantic opportunity cost) instead of buffing the existing cooldowns (and raising his offensive capabilities in some way).

IB really IS one of the most powerful abilities in the game

But it's really not: It's a skill that is barely used outside of very specific situations and has no real usage in any optmized play. The skill wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the Defiance requirement.

[SyzzleSpark]

But it's really not: It's a skill that is barely used outside of very specific situations and has no real usage in any optmized play. The skill wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the Defiance requirement.

Suffice it to say you're going to continue taking what I say in one context and putting it in another (IB extremely powerful in prog vs. not so much in optimized runs) in spite of my best efforts to speak in plain, fluent, punctuated English. That being said, if you agree DRK is poor for optimization and lacks in offense and defense, remind us again why you're splitting hairs on this thread that is seeking to address those very issues?

[Freyyy]

We both agree that DRK somewhat lacks both offense and defense. But I don't understand why DRK needs a skill that works like IB (a defensive CD with a gigantic opportunity cost) instead of buffing the existing cooldowns (and raising his offensive capabilities in some way).

But that's exactly what we are asking for here. I don't know where you read that we wanted a skill that works like IB.

[Accelerating]

That being said, if you agree DRK is poor for optimization and lacks in offense and defense, remind us again why you're splitting hairs on this thread that is seeking to address those very issues?

Because there are various wrong statements in this thread.

But that's exactly what we are asking for here. I don't know where you read that we wanted a skill that works like IB.

SyzzleSpark wanted either buffs to the existings capabilities or a safety net like IB or Clemency. To which I replied that those 'extra CD' are pretty useless - IB at least.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

Sometimes when discussing changes to jobs you must draw comparisons with those in the same role.

IB and Clemency are "extras" or "safety nets" that DRK does not have an equivalent of. This makes it very difficult to do early prog on DRK with a low amount of Grit uptime. What happens on the other tanks is that you are able to use these extras in place of another CD or heal, thus freeing up an additional CD, be it Vengeance or Rampart or what-have-you, to cover you while you tank out of stance. This is all moot if you are one of those tanks that sits in DPS stance even as their party is dying around them on a fight they haven't even seen enrage on yet, in which case you're on a whole other plane of existence and my words may as well be hieroglyphics.

You are correct in stating that such abilities are DPS losses, but you speak as though you just walk into a fight and instantly have it on farm, this isn't the case. World prog groups see an extremely high amount of Defiance uptime, because it allows breathing room for mistakes, as do all tank stances, allowing for longer pulls, more mechanics, and thus more opportunities to see and learn those mechanics to get to those parse/farm runs you are unable to see past.

Of course you don't want to lower your DPS for such abilities, but having the option to do so is invaluable. Options = success.

That being said, this is just one way they could buff DRK's personal mitigation, and it need not be in the form of something like IB. They could simply buff Souleater's Grit drain to 150% of the damage dealt or something. Or it could be something totally uninvolved with our DPS, a buff to our existing capabilities as stated before. I've discussed this quite a bit in this thread as well; things such as allowing DA Dark Mind to cover physical damage as well, having a longer duration on Shadow Wall, or perhaps a mechanic wherein DA lowers the cooldown on Shadow Wall by a couple seconds per cast. As it stands, the other two tanks have 3 core CDs and an invuln that cost no DPS or resources (not counting Sheltron's gauge cost as lets be honest, that's not a true resource in any meaningful way). Whereas out of our 3 CDs (Shadow Wall, Mind, and TBN), 1.5 of them cost mana and thus DPS to use, or at least a risk of that mana being wasted. And then beyond that, we have nothing. No Clemency, no IB, no Equilibrium, none of these other bells and whistles.

If you tally up defensive abilities between the three tanks, its clear that TBN is not an "extra" or a "safety net". Its a core part of our mitigation suite that is used a lot, because for the most part, we don't have much else outside of cross-role. And I believe it was a horrible design decision to entangle it with our mana management without offering significant payoff. TBN isn't just a cooldown, its a damn job mechanic, and one that, on average, does not reward you for mastering it at all. And no, it doesn't save any more healer GCDs than the cooldowns of the other tanks. Taking zero damage from a single AA looks neat, but it just means you took the ones immediately before and after on your bare buttcheeks, rather than simply having sustained, predictable mitigation over a period of time that your healers can actually account for. If anything TBN is harder for a healer to keep track of when used as sustained mitigation throughout a fight compared to a cooldown that lasts 10-20s that mitigates x% of damage taken. Half the time the buff is gone from your bar before your healer can even see it, react, and adjust their GCD usage accordingly.

If you really want to delve into some masturbatory elitism, a meaningful buff to our personal DPS, combined with a new form of mitigation that costs DPS in the way that Clemency/IB/Equil do, would, in conjunction, have the dual effect of lowering the skill floor and raising the skill ceiling, the gap between which has been deemed far too small in SB by most of the playerbase.

Personally, I tend towards simply buffing our existing CDs, but in order to justify this, it is necessary to point out those extra things that the other tanks have that DRK does not, in addition to the fact that outside of TBN (with which you play Russian roulette with your mana), our CDs are just flat-out weaker, unless, as has been stated numerous times, SE props us up with raid tiers that feature overwhelmingly magical spike damage. You couldn't pay me real money to take SB DRK into a fight like A5S, A7S, or A9S over PLD/WAR.

In Heavensward, DRK was actually pretty well balanced in terms of physical and magical mitigation in spite of the general feelings of the playerbase, because, on fights were Dark Mind was less useful, Dark Dance+Reprisal combined offered similar, albeit sustained (rather than burst) mitigation on such fights. That balance is pretty much destroyed right now, and a lot of people want to see it come back.

[Lyth]

I feel like you can't take these things in isolation. Inner Beast is 450 potency with Defiance and SE buffs (compared to Grit Bloodspiller's 475 potency), is a 360-450 potency self heal, and a 20% DR move that doesn't lose effectiveness if it soaks up autos before the big hit. What makes it "useless" is the fact that Fell Cleave is a 600 potency attack with Deliverance and SE buffs. It's the same situation with Unchained; on any other tank it would be incredibly powerful. It just so happens that WAR has an even more powerful ability on top of that which is mutually exclusive. #firstworldproblems

That's not to say that TBN is perfect either. Use it too early, and it gets eaten up by autos prior to the hit you actually want to mitigate, and mistime it and you get a 168 potency loss (185 potency in Grit). It's easy to say "just hold on to the extra MP", but when your goal in a buff window is to fit in as many DA uses as possible, hanging on to 25% of your MP bar just in case you need it is going to be a dps loss.

The addition of TBN also devalues DM, because the only thing less appealing than hanging on to 25% of your MP bar to use TBN is reserving 25% for DADM which is a flat 168 potency loss. The DA effect might as well not exist now, and a 15% magic DR cooldown is not an acceptable substitute for having both ToB and RI on WAR. That's before we even attempt to make a comparison between Vengeance and Shadow Wall, or Holmgang and Living Dead. There's simply no comparison. WAR mitigates more for less effort, less resource management, and loses less dps to do so. It's just more forgiving at all skill levels, and there's four weeks of raid performance data to support this.

Removing all the resource costs from WAR's stance dancing on top of removing the costs from IR/Unchained was what pushed this over the edge. They had a slight advantage over DRK prior to going into 4.05, and now it's a significant one.

[SyzzleSpark]

The DA effect might as well not exist now, and a 15% magic DR cooldown is not an acceptable substitute for having both ToB and RI on WAR. That's before we even attempt to make a comparison between Vengeance and Shadow Wall, or Holmgang and Living Dead. There's simply no comparison. WAR mitigates more for less effort, less resource management, and loses less dps to do so. It's just more forgiving at all skill levels, and there's four weeks of raid performance data to support this.

Removing all the resource costs from WAR's stance dancing on top of removing the costs from IR/Unchained was what pushed this over the edge. They had a slight advantage over DRK prior to going into 4.05, and now it's a significant one.

A bit of a tangent, but I can't help but notice a distinct inability between DRK and WAR mains to see eye-to-eye on the value/lack thereof inherent in their different playstyles. They mitigate effortlessly, but their DPS requires a bit more effort to maximize, however they are rewarded with the highest tank DPS for doing so, and they think this is awful. All you see is them complaining about how hard it is to do damage on their job.

Meanwhile in DRK world, we would kill to mitigate with the ease that they do, and to have a higher skill ceiling that rewards us for maximizing the job. I wonder how the community doesn't see this. Would they rather have to work for their mitigation whilst barely being rewarded at all in DPS for optimization? Cause if so they should all play DRK if you ask me.

[DRKoftheAzure]

People are making new threads while ignoring this one... which is almost always the first tank thread that gets some new discussion... What are we doing wrong for this to happen?

[FallenWings]

A bit of a tangent, but I can't help but notice a distinct inability between DRK and WAR mains to see eye-to-eye on the value/lack thereof inherent in their different playstyles. They mitigate effortlessly, but their DPS requires a bit more effort to maximize, however they are rewarded with the highest tank DPS for doing so, and they think this is awful. All you see is them complaining about how hard it is to do damage on their job.

Meanwhile in DRK world, we would kill to mitigate with the ease that they do, and to have a higher skill ceiling that rewards us for maximizing the job. I wonder how the community doesn't see this. Would they rather have to work for their mitigation whilst barely being rewarded at all in DPS for optimization? Cause if so they should all play DRK if you ask me.

Your 3.0 WAR PTSD is showing. Funny because I'd say DRK was also low key OP during that time but agreeably not as bad as WAR.

Your constant generalizing of the WAR playerbase and bitching of your own class is frankly getting annoying to read when you're meant to be a source of well thought out DRK input.

No one likes the Duality of WAR. Because there is no duality. There is hardly ever a time where IB > FC or Unchained > Inner Release. You don't see any reasonable DRK petitioning for Blood Price to be on the same cooldown as Blood Weapon, so why even bother nuking WAR further with this crippling system? WAR does not have a middle ground like DRK or PLD where they are not crippled as hard for choosing to play in either Stance. If anything, DRK doesn't even have as big a penalty for being in Grit other than the cost of turning it on. Bloodspiller being virtually same in both states as well as TBN being availiable in both and hardly costing you DPS for using it is fantastic.

I'd kill to have Inner Beast in Deliverance and I'd kill if it didn't cost me an FC, but that's not going to happen because dur Beast Gauge.

You may think WAR is great numbers wise, and they may be.

But it surely isn't fun still having half my toolset being largely terrible to use because of what it costs me.