DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[FallenWings]

I'm pretty sure it was 5sec.

Edit : Checked some outdated guides, I was wrong.

It's not your fault for not remembering its duration since the skill is never used in HW. :^)

[Accelerating]

It's not your fault for not remembering its duration since the skill is never used in HW. :^)

Never used? I beg to differ:

IB is one of the most powerful abilities in the game

- and the best way to buff DRK is to give it a similiar ability that can only be used inside Grit and leads to a DPS loss, extactly what the job needs for farm parties and speedclears.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

I don't recall ever suggesting a buff to DRK based on its performance in farm parties or speed clears.

Sarcasm this poorly veiled only has any impact against an argument that actually happened. What I have stated many times is that the job is too over-reliant on TBN, an ability that by design is intended to stop mitigating damage as quickly as possible (so as to make it resource efficient, or close to it), has no cooldowns that last longer than 10 seconds, and has the most healing intensive invuln combined with the worst personal healing sustain. If we're talking about farming/speed clears, then what DRK actually needs is higher DPS and for the cooldown that constitutes the vast majority of its personal mitigation (TBN) to not be a DPS loss. In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a reason to take a DRK into an optimized parse run.

When talking about prog (and the more risk-averse playstyle that people will adopt at that time), I believe a WAR/PLD comp is still the safest option. DRK just doesn't bring anything significant to the table unless SE props it up with magic-packed raids, which is one of the complaints this thread is addressing.

You quoting my statement about IB as if it is something meme-worthy is really telling; IB really IS one of the most powerful abilities in the game, for what it does, and I'd be hard pressed to find anyone that progress-raids in this game that disagrees. Just because one waits until they're 10-20 ilvls overgeared before they start clearing and farming content doesn't make an ability like IB objectively useless.

[Accelerating]

If we're talking about farming/speed clears, then what DRK actually needs is higher DPS and for the cooldown that constitutes the vast majority of its personal mitigation (TBN) to not be a DPS loss. In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a reason to take a DRK into an optimized parse run.

I agree that DRK is probably the worst tank for speed clear. And even though TBN is a really small personal dps loss in most cases, it is easily a raidwide dps gain if the healers can spend more time casting offensive spell as a result.

When talking about prog [...] DRK just doesn't bring anything significant to the table

But TBN is huge in progression: It's an IB every 15 seconds with almost no cost. And it's a shiled (unlike IB) so it can actually safe in those dire situations where the healers are busy and can't heal you in time for the next auto attack.

We both agree that DRK somewhat lacks both offense and defense. But I don't understand why DRK needs a skill that works like IB (a defensive CD with a gigantic opportunity cost) instead of buffing the existing cooldowns (and raising his offensive capabilities in some way).

IB really IS one of the most powerful abilities in the game

But it's really not: It's a skill that is barely used outside of very specific situations and has no real usage in any optmized play. The skill wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the Defiance requirement.

[SyzzleSpark]

But it's really not: It's a skill that is barely used outside of very specific situations and has no real usage in any optmized play. The skill wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the Defiance requirement.

Suffice it to say you're going to continue taking what I say in one context and putting it in another (IB extremely powerful in prog vs. not so much in optimized runs) in spite of my best efforts to speak in plain, fluent, punctuated English. That being said, if you agree DRK is poor for optimization and lacks in offense and defense, remind us again why you're splitting hairs on this thread that is seeking to address those very issues?

[Freyyy]

We both agree that DRK somewhat lacks both offense and defense. But I don't understand why DRK needs a skill that works like IB (a defensive CD with a gigantic opportunity cost) instead of buffing the existing cooldowns (and raising his offensive capabilities in some way).

But that's exactly what we are asking for here. I don't know where you read that we wanted a skill that works like IB.

[Accelerating]

That being said, if you agree DRK is poor for optimization and lacks in offense and defense, remind us again why you're splitting hairs on this thread that is seeking to address those very issues?

Because there are various wrong statements in this thread.

But that's exactly what we are asking for here. I don't know where you read that we wanted a skill that works like IB.

SyzzleSpark wanted either buffs to the existings capabilities or a safety net like IB or Clemency. To which I replied that those 'extra CD' are pretty useless - IB at least.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

Sometimes when discussing changes to jobs you must draw comparisons with those in the same role.

IB and Clemency are "extras" or "safety nets" that DRK does not have an equivalent of. This makes it very difficult to do early prog on DRK with a low amount of Grit uptime. What happens on the other tanks is that you are able to use these extras in place of another CD or heal, thus freeing up an additional CD, be it Vengeance or Rampart or what-have-you, to cover you while you tank out of stance. This is all moot if you are one of those tanks that sits in DPS stance even as their party is dying around them on a fight they haven't even seen enrage on yet, in which case you're on a whole other plane of existence and my words may as well be hieroglyphics.

You are correct in stating that such abilities are DPS losses, but you speak as though you just walk into a fight and instantly have it on farm, this isn't the case. World prog groups see an extremely high amount of Defiance uptime, because it allows breathing room for mistakes, as do all tank stances, allowing for longer pulls, more mechanics, and thus more opportunities to see and learn those mechanics to get to those parse/farm runs you are unable to see past.

Of course you don't want to lower your DPS for such abilities, but having the option to do so is invaluable. Options = success.

That being said, this is just one way they could buff DRK's personal mitigation, and it need not be in the form of something like IB. They could simply buff Souleater's Grit drain to 150% of the damage dealt or something. Or it could be something totally uninvolved with our DPS, a buff to our existing capabilities as stated before. I've discussed this quite a bit in this thread as well; things such as allowing DA Dark Mind to cover physical damage as well, having a longer duration on Shadow Wall, or perhaps a mechanic wherein DA lowers the cooldown on Shadow Wall by a couple seconds per cast. As it stands, the other two tanks have 3 core CDs and an invuln that cost no DPS or resources (not counting Sheltron's gauge cost as lets be honest, that's not a true resource in any meaningful way). Whereas out of our 3 CDs (Shadow Wall, Mind, and TBN), 1.5 of them cost mana and thus DPS to use, or at least a risk of that mana being wasted. And then beyond that, we have nothing. No Clemency, no IB, no Equilibrium, none of these other bells and whistles.

If you tally up defensive abilities between the three tanks, its clear that TBN is not an "extra" or a "safety net". Its a core part of our mitigation suite that is used a lot, because for the most part, we don't have much else outside of cross-role. And I believe it was a horrible design decision to entangle it with our mana management without offering significant payoff. TBN isn't just a cooldown, its a damn job mechanic, and one that, on average, does not reward you for mastering it at all. And no, it doesn't save any more healer GCDs than the cooldowns of the other tanks. Taking zero damage from a single AA looks neat, but it just means you took the ones immediately before and after on your bare buttcheeks, rather than simply having sustained, predictable mitigation over a period of time that your healers can actually account for. If anything TBN is harder for a healer to keep track of when used as sustained mitigation throughout a fight compared to a cooldown that lasts 10-20s that mitigates x% of damage taken. Half the time the buff is gone from your bar before your healer can even see it, react, and adjust their GCD usage accordingly.

If you really want to delve into some masturbatory elitism, a meaningful buff to our personal DPS, combined with a new form of mitigation that costs DPS in the way that Clemency/IB/Equil do, would, in conjunction, have the dual effect of lowering the skill floor and raising the skill ceiling, the gap between which has been deemed far too small in SB by most of the playerbase.

Personally, I tend towards simply buffing our existing CDs, but in order to justify this, it is necessary to point out those extra things that the other tanks have that DRK does not, in addition to the fact that outside of TBN (with which you play Russian roulette with your mana), our CDs are just flat-out weaker, unless, as has been stated numerous times, SE props us up with raid tiers that feature overwhelmingly magical spike damage. You couldn't pay me real money to take SB DRK into a fight like A5S, A7S, or A9S over PLD/WAR.

In Heavensward, DRK was actually pretty well balanced in terms of physical and magical mitigation in spite of the general feelings of the playerbase, because, on fights were Dark Mind was less useful, Dark Dance+Reprisal combined offered similar, albeit sustained (rather than burst) mitigation on such fights. That balance is pretty much destroyed right now, and a lot of people want to see it come back.