DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[EusisLandale]

1. The rotation is really repetitive and bland with just 1 DPS combo. People currently compare DRK to 2.0 PLD.
1. Bring Scourge back as a 3rd combo finisher after Syphon Strike.

The difference being that we have more things on the side to do than Paladin did back then. And Scourge really just is not coming back, between Bloodspiller and Darkside's buff it's been baked into the Job without the need for constant management.

2. The class is noticeably squishier then the other tanks, especially before level 70 without TBN.
2. Make Dark Mind reduce both physical and magical damage.

It's going to take more than just one skill and adjustment to touch this problem up. Give Blood Price a mitigation effect to put it in line with Blood Weapon. make Dark Mind apply to all damage, improve The Blackest Night's duration, allow Souleater to heal even if only at half the rate out of Grit, and alter Shadow Wall to have two of three minimum; more power, a better duration, or a lower recast time.

3. Unleashed is useless after Abyssal Drain.
3. Either delete Unleashed and give us Abyssal Drain at level 6, or give us a trait at 56 that improves Unleashed and makes it into Abyssal Drain.
Not much to talk about here, having 2 AOE skills that do the same thing is redundant.

Unleashed is Power Slash to Abyssal Drain's Souleater. You're looking at x20.6 enmity vs x5. It would be more reasonable to ask for Abyssal Drain to lose its enmity modifier rather than to ask for them to be merged.

4. Dark Passenger is hardly worth using, its very underwhelming.
4. Make Dark Passenger free and make the DA effect baseline.
It makes it always worth using

They don't want it to be always worth using, they made that pretty clear with the cost and potency adjustments. Dark Passenger is an early game tool to weave in for some damage before you get all your aoe tools, and a late game trash mitigation tool. The change to Quietus allows for us to get into a period where we're overwhelmed with MP when paired with Blood Weapon. A single BW Quietus on 5 targets pays off a DA DP.
About the only way you could convince them to make Dark Passenger free and to have its Dark Arts boost naturally is if that comes with the condition of stripping its potency. Congrats, you got Line Flash.

5. Blood Weapon and Blood Price is unnecessary button bloat.
5. Make Blood Weapon usable in Grit, and merge the effects of Blood Price into Blood Weapon.
Another idea is to merge Anticipation into Blood Weapon to justify the Blood Price effect thematically and to increase desperately needed Physical mitigation

Dark Knights are hardly suffering from any button bloat. No, it would be far better to leave them separate. And no linking them up to the same recast time like Warrior stuff either. Again though, Blood Price definitely needs to be given mitigation. That puts it thematically in line with Blood Weapon, MP+Blood Generation and DPS/Mitigation.

[Link594]

The difference being that we have more things on the side to do than Paladin did back then. And Scourge really just is not coming back, between Bloodspiller and Darkside's buff it's been baked into the Job without the need for constant management.

So things can be readjusted, I'm not advocating for a DPS buff, just for a less bland rotation.

It's going to take more than just one skill and adjustment to touch this problem up. Give Blood Price a mitigation effect to put it in line with Blood Weapon. make Dark Mind apply to all damage, improve The Blackest Night's duration, allow Souleater to heal even if only at half the rate out of Grit, and alter Shadow Wall to have two of three minimum; more power, a better duration, or a lower recast time.

While I don't disagree with some of those suggestions, the biggest problem is that Dark Mind is very situational and DRK doesn't have as many tool as the other tanks to mitigate Physical damage.

Unleashed is Power Slash to Abyssal Drain's Souleater. You're looking at x20.6 enmity vs x5. It would be more reasonable to ask for Abyssal Drain to lose its enmity modifier rather than to ask for them to be merged.

Unleashed is basically a DRK version of flash that does 50 potency. It really is redundant in the grand scheme of things. And that argument doesn't really hold. Unleashed is not as useful as Power Slash is. If you are using unleashed, you are pretty much wasting the GCD.

They don't want it to be always worth using, they made that pretty clear with the cost and potency adjustments. Dark Passenger is an early game tool to weave in for some damage before you get all your aoe tools, and a late game trash mitigation tool. The change to Quietus allows for us to get into a period where we're overwhelmed with MP when paired with Blood Weapon. A single BW Quietus on 5 targets pays off a DA DP.
About the only way you could convince them to make Dark Passenger free and to have its Dark Arts boost naturally is if that comes with the condition of stripping its potency. Congrats, you got Line Flash.

Except Dark Passenger is completely useless. DP costs the same amount of MP as DA, so if you are really capped on MP, and you can't afford to wait for the next Abyssal Drain, you're better off spending it on DA. The blind really doesn't mesh well with Blood Price, and we don't need that mitigation if we get other mitigation you or I mentioned buffed. When I meant naturally have the DA boost, I meant the potency boost. A similar ability would be Howling Fist from Monk.

Dark Knights are hardly suffering from any button bloat. No, it would be far better to leave them separate. And no linking them up to the same recast time like Warrior stuff either. Again though, Blood Price definitely needs to be given mitigation. That puts it thematically in line with Blood Weapon, MP+Blood Generation and DPS/Mitigation.

Why leave them separate? They both have the same function and are mutually exclusive. I also don't want them on the same recast, I would much prefer to just have the effects combined. 1 button for MP regen, there is no need for 2 mutually exclusive ones that accomplish the same thing. This also goes back with Unleashed/Abyssal Drain argument.

As I said before, these solutions are pretty common ones that people are suggesting. In this very thread, in the forums, and elsewhere. DRK has too many underwhelming abilities and too many redundancies in their kit.

[EusisLandale]

So things can be readjusted, I'm not advocating for a DPS buff, just for a less bland rotation.

It's only bland if you're looking at just the core of it and not the whole picture. Dark Knight is less a rotation based Job and more a priority based one. Just slapping in a third combo just because the others do isn't really going to help matters.

While I don't disagree with some of those suggestions, the biggest problem is that Dark Mind is very situational and DRK doesn't have as many tool as the other tanks to mitigate Physical damage.

Dark Mind being situational is fine. Dark Mind being situational when we have next to nothing outside of those situations is the bigger problem in the long run. Something needs to happen, be it DM going all damage types or some other changes.

Unleashed is basically a DRK version of flash that does 50 potency. It really is redundant in the grand scheme of things. And that argument doesn't really hold. Unleashed is not as useful as Power Slash is. If you are using unleashed, you are pretty much wasting the GCD.

Unleash and Power Slash are both generally cheaper, weaker, high enmity alternatives to the more expensive and powerful Abyssal Drain and Souleater. Should we roll Power Slash into Souleater just because one is wasted GCDs outside of the opening of a fight? Because that's the same place Unleash is at.

Except Dark Passenger is completely useless. DP costs the same amount of MP as DA, so if you are really capped on MP, and you can't afford to wait for the next Abyssal Drain, you're better off spending it on DA. The blind really doesn't mesh well with Blood Price, and we don't need that mitigation if we get other mitigation you or I mentioned buffed.

You don't pair it with Blood Price. You pair it with Blood Weapon.

When I meant naturally have the DA boost, I meant the potency boost. A similar ability would be Howling Fist from Monk.

They put out the nerfs to Dark Passenger specifically to avoid having us use multiple area attacks in single target situations. They're not going to give us a free oGCD instant 240 AoE

Why leave them separate? They both have the same function and are mutually exclusive. I also don't want them on the same recast, I would much prefer to just have the effects combined. 1 button for MP regen, there is no need for 2 mutually exclusive ones that accomplish the same thing. This also goes back with Unleashed/Abyssal Drain argument.

As it stands right now, you can have 30-46 seconds of extra MP and Blood generation. 15-23 if you're the OT. The function may be the same, but the method is different; Blood Weapon rewards offensive playstyles, Blood Price rewards defensive playstyles. And if you wish to make the argument of rolling things together based on function rather than purpose and method, I'll again say to just roll Power Slash's combo into Souleater's. Let's just roll all the tank enmity combos into the damage combos. But this is of course an insane suggestion.

As I said before, these solutions are pretty common ones that people are suggesting. In this very thread, in the forums, and elsewhere. DRK has too many underwhelming abilities and too many redundancies in their kit.

Common suggestions do not equal good suggestions. The constant hyperfocus on tank DPS being a pretty good example, all the changes this patch were to accommodate those issues rather than the more pressing matters of mitigation and utility.

[Link594]

It's only bland if you're looking at just the core of it and not the whole picture. Dark Knight is less a rotation based Job and more a priority based one. Just slapping in a third combo just because the others do isn't really going to help matters.

Dark Knight isn't a priority based system at all. Your rotation is very simple, its Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, Souleater. You Bloodspiller when you have enough blood gauge, and you dart arts when you have enough MP. You use Plunge and Salted Earth and Carve and Spit on recast and thats it. It doesn't matter when you Bloodspiller or what you Dart Arts, (with the exception of Carve and Spit) What priority are you talking about? The only priority in the entire class is Dark Arts Carve and Spit. As long as you aren't capping on MP or Blood, you are doing as much as the class allows. What is the whole picture for you?

Dark Mind being situational is fine. Dark Mind being situational when we have next to nothing outside of those situations is the bigger problem in the long run. Something needs to happen, be it DM going all damage types or some other changes.

That is exactly my point. And my suggestion is that the "something" be DM going all damage types. It is a very simple fix that goes a long way. You could change whatever else you wanted, but the magical limitation of DM is a huge contributor to DRK's mitigation weakness.

Unleash and Power Slash are both generally cheaper, weaker, high enmity alternatives to the more expensive and powerful Abyssal Drain and Souleater. Should we roll Power Slash into Souleater just because one is wasted GCDs outside of the opening of a fight? Because that's the same place Unleash is at.

Except its not where Unleash is at. You aren't supposed to use Unleash at all, are you really telling me you use Unleash to establish enmity? You can take it off your bars and your performance wouldn't drop. Power Slash has a use, Unleash doesn't. They aren't comparable at all.

You don't pair it with Blood Price. You pair it with Blood Weapon.

You don't pair it at all, Dark Passenger is a waste of MP. Some people don't even have it on their bars. Same with Unleash.

They put out the nerfs to Dark Passenger specifically to avoid having us use multiple area attacks in single target situations. They're not going to give us a free oGCD instant 240 AoE

and the nerf to Dark Passenger is a mistake. something needs to change with Dark Passenger. It's useless. I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here, that Dark Passenger is fine? It's by far DRK's most underwhelming ability, even if you wanted to argue that it had a use, its use is faar more situational then Dark Mind.

As it stands right now, you can have 30-46 seconds of extra MP and Blood generation. 15-23 if you're the OT. The function may be the same, but the method is different; Blood Weapon rewards offensive playstyles, Blood Price rewards defensive playstyles. And if you wish to make the argument of rolling things together based on function rather than purpose and method, I'll again say to just roll Power Slash's combo into Souleater's. Let's just roll all the tank enmity combos into the damage combos. But this is of course an insane suggestion.

Except Power Slash combo and Souleater have different functions. One is to establish threat and the other is to do damage. What would you do if you wanted to do damage without establishing threat....like an OT does?

Common suggestions do not equal good suggestions. The constant hyperfocus on tank DPS being a pretty good example, all the changes this patch were to accommodate those issues rather than the more pressing matters of mitigation and utility.

Common suggestions are usually good suggestions more often then not. I won't argue more then this, as this doesn't really relate to DRK.

[EusisLandale]

Dark Knight isn't a priority based system at all. Your rotation is very simple, its Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, Souleater. You Bloodspiller when you have enough blood gauge, and you dart arts when you have enough MP. You use Plunge and Salted Earth and Carve and Spit on recast and thats it. It doesn't matter when you Bloodspiller or what you Dart Arts, (with the exception of Carve and Spit) What priority are you talking about? The only priority in the entire class is Dark Arts Carve and Spit. As long as you aren't capping on MP or Blood, you are doing as much as the class allows. What is the whole picture for you?

You have 50 Blood. Blood Weapon/Price have 7 seconds left. Delirium is going to be ready to use in 5 seconds. Do you Bloodspiller? You have 2400 MP, your last hit was Syphon Strike, Carve and Spit is not ready yet, The Blackest Night is. What do you press? You have 50 Blood, You have less than 1320 MP, you have 4 targets. What do you press?

Except its not where Unleash is at. You aren't supposed to use Unleash at all, are you really telling me you use Unleash to establish enmity? You can take it off your bars and your performance wouldn't drop. Power Slash has a use, Unleash doesn't. They aren't comparable at all.

Unleash is a x 20.6 enmity move. Abyssal Drain is x5. 1030 vs 600. I will Unmend pull if things are too spread, I will Abyssal Drain pull otherwise, the first ability used once everything is in range is Unleash. Possibly twice, depending on what sort of DPS I have. After that, I will Abyssal Drain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/enmity

You don't pair it at all, Dark Passenger is a waste of MP. Some people don't even have it on their bars. Same with Unleash.

During a Blood _ Quietus spam period on trash you are generating FAR more MP than you can spend on Dark Arts Abyssal Drains alone. You could Dark Arts Quietus itself, but then Dark Passenger is worth more potency at that point, and DADP worth even more.
The MP is more wasted by letting yourself hit 100% and gain nothing. You could also just keep doing ADs and not bother with Quietus, but then you're depriving yourself of raw potency, MP, self healing, and mitigation.
Some people don't have Limit Break on their bars just because the purpose of it is scarce. Doesn't make them right.

Except Power Slash combo and Souleater have different functions. One is to establish threat and the other is to do damage. What would you do if you wanted to do damage without establishing threat....like an OT does?

If all the tanks only have enmity combos because we rolled everything together to save buttons, what does it matter? Again, it's an insane suggestion I admit, it's just also the logical conclusion of you wanting to roll things into one for being even slightly similar.

[Link594]

You have 50 Blood. Blood Weapon/Price have 7 seconds left. Delirium is going to be ready to use in 5 seconds. Do you Bloodspiller? You have 2400 MP, your last hit was Syphon Strike, Carve and Spit is not ready yet, The Blackest Night is. What do you press? You have 50 Blood, You have less than 1320 MP, you have 4 targets. What do you press?

You are arguing DRK has many "choices" to make in their "priority-based" system. The answer is simple, its always Dart Arts in ST and Abyssal Drain in AoE for MP, and Bloodspiller in ST and Quietus in AoE for Blood. There is no choice here, your "choice" is just an illusion. those 2 abilities are in completely different rotations 1 target vs multiple.

The only choice DRK has is whether to Spinning Slash for threat or Syphon Strike for MP/Damage. TBH is only used if you know you can get the shield to break. To answer your questions, the first one is Delirium, 2nd is DA-Souleater, 3rd is Quietus. Just following the rotation I outlined. Besides Delirium and DA Carve and Spit, the class has no priorities or procs to take advantage of.

Unleash is a x 20.6 enmity move. Abyssal Drain is x5. 1030 vs 600. I will Unmend pull if things are too spread, I will Abyssal Drain pull otherwise, the first ability used once everything is in range is Unleash. Possibly twice, depending on what sort of DPS I have. After that, I will Abyssal Drain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/enmity

You have a very skewed idea of Unleash. You are basically saying you need to use it to hold threat, which is just false. Abyssal Drain is much more then enough. You can argue that Unleash has a positional use, but I'd argue that it doesn't justify keeping it around.

During a Blood _ Quietus spam period on trash you are generating FAR more MP than you can spend on Dark Arts Abyssal Drains alone. You could Dark Arts Quietus itself, but then Dark Passenger is worth more potency at that point, and DADP worth even more.
The MP is more wasted by letting yourself hit 100% and gain nothing. You could also just keep doing ADs and not bother with Quietus, but then you're depriving yourself of raw potency, MP, self healing, and mitigation.
Some people don't have Limit Break on their bars just because the purpose of it is scarce. Doesn't make them right.

I guess you are arguing Dark Passenger is a well tuned ability. The entire DRK community disagrees with you. I'm not going to try to change your mind, but maybe you should be shooting down everyone's DP buff suggestions since you think the ability is good as it is. Comparing Limit Break with Dark Passenger isn't really fair, not having the Limit Break can wipe your party, not having Dark Passenger wouldn't have any noticeable effect.

If all the tanks only have enmity combos because we rolled everything together to save buttons, what does it matter? Again, it's an insane suggestion I admit, it's just also the logical conclusion of you wanting to roll things into one for being even slightly similar.

I don't think you read or saw what I said. I just told you they have different functions. So of course it matters lol. If you roll them together, you have no way of managing your enmity independent of your damage. You lose a functionality. You are comparing 2 different things with no relation, my argument still stands.

[EusisLandale]

TBH is only used if you know you can get the shield to break. To answer your questions, the first one is Delirium, 2nd is DA-Souleater, 3rd is Quietus. Just following the rotation I outlined. Besides Delirium and DA Carve and Spit, the class has no priorities or procs to take advantage of.

Your first answer has contradicted your stance that you Bloodspiller when you have the Blood, as you have prioritized Delirium. Your second answer you have decided that you wouldn't be able to break TBN and prioritized Dark Arts instead.

You have a very skewed idea of Unleash. You are basically saying you need to use it to hold threat, which is just false. Abyssal Drain is much more then enough. You can argue that Unleash has a positional use, but I'd argue that it doesn't justify keeping it around.

Establish enmity, not to hold it. Just like Power Slash.

I guess you are arguing Dark Passenger is a well tuned ability.

And here we have you moving the goal. You said it was, and I quote,

Except Dark Passenger is completely useless.

when the fact of the matter is it has a good use within a situation that comes up quite regularly.
If you'd like I can provide another situation where Dark Passenger is the more viable option for spending your MP. Two targets. This is also a situation that occurs fairly regularly.
Abyssal Drain is 720 over 3 GCDs, while a Souleater combo is 700. A Ninja or Samurai being present brings that up to 770.
One Dark Arts brings it up to 840/924, two brings it up to 980/1078. Alternatively Dark Passenger brings it up to 900/970, while DADP brings it to 1180/1250.

So, what we have here with Dark Passenger is an ability that sees proper usage in light aoe situations, on its own, as well as extreme aoe situations, with support from other tools we possess.
What we no longer have with Dark Passenger is an aoe ability that sees use in every situation every single time it comes off cooldown.

I don't think you read or saw what I said. I just told you they have different functions. So of course it matters lol. If you roll them together, you have no way of managing your enmity independent of your damage. You lose a functionality. You are comparing 2 different things with no relation, my argument still stands.

Blood Price affords you MP and Blood while playing defensively. Blood Weapon does the same while playing offensively. Similar, but not quite the same function. By making the two one button you lose the ability to do both. You cut away the options in favor of some "ideal" best of both worlds concept. Unleash establishes enmity, Abyssal Drain maintains it and provides better DPS. Similar, but not quite the same. So yes, the logical conclusion of you wanting to roll things together to save space is to roll enmity and dps combos for all tanks into one combo.