DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[SyzzleSpark]

I think its unnecessary to make a fuss about it at this point.

TBN is under scrutiny (at least currently, there's 40 pages behind us of discussion on other aspects of DRK as well) because its essentially a second DA, a whole other resource mechanic in and of itself, as well as a mitigation tool. I don't think its unreasonable to look at it more closely when trying to figure out ways to fix DRK's problems (meh DPS ceiling, lopsided mitigation, tons of cost/return resource mechanics that don't really reward you that much for mastering them, etc.)

Feel free to offer some alternative suggestions.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I don't expect DRK to get fixed until 7.0 which until then I'm just going to renew game time whenever story updates happen... also going to point out that it took 2 expansions for PLD to get what they needed for AoE damage/crowd control as well as the fixes they needed, I expect they are giving DRK the same treatment and my hopes for 4.1 patch are basically more potency adjustments... and if it's mitigation on defensive cooldowns then it goes from WAR Jr. to PLD Jr. in terms of tanking... DRK should be doing damage down debuffs from their offensive cooldowns and GCD since they fit more thematically with DRK as a tank... but yeah I expect them to fix DRK in 7.0 which by then people would have either stopped playing by 5.0 or just moved to a different class/job entirely as their main...

[Lyth]

Resource-based mitigation can potentially hurt you in two ways. First, there is the net potency loss from spending the resource. Second, there is the opportunity cost of holding on to resources that you would otherwise want to spend. During Infusion/TA/Embolden, you want to spend as much resources as you can in the window. Likewise, prior to phase transitions where there is no active target, you want to burn off as much MP as possible to allow it to tick back up during the intermission. Being asked to hang on to 18-43% of your MP to perform baseline job functions that other tanks do for free is still a dps loss, even if they were to fully reimburse you after the fact.

There are five %DR actions built-in to DRK. Of these, three have attached resource costs: Grit (18%), TBN (25%), and DADM (25%). Two of these are not reimbursable, and the costs are quite high.

The exchange rate of blood and MP is not fixed. It has actually shown a lot of variation over minor patches, and even presently, TBN varies (on average) from a minor dps gain to a minor dps loss when it breaks. The only way for it to be "free" mitigation would be if it reimbursed you for the MP cost when used correctly, but that would probably be a bit boring, and still runs up against the opportunity cost issue that I raised above.

There actually isn't a problem with having TBN being part of dps optimisation. Third Eye/Seigan on SAM can be used to give you minor resource gains if you use it correctly by predicting incoming damage, and that's on a dps job. It seems like predicting damage and counterattacking would make a lot of sense on a tank job. But it shouldn't something that you throw on any auto and expect it to break. TBN's real function is to mitigate cleaves and single hit tankbusters, and these are what you should be rewarded for predicting.

I don't think that TBN single-handedly solves all of DRK's mitigation problems, either. TBN specifically works on single hit tankbusters. How do you think it would fare against a multi-hit physical tankbuster, such as A7S' Uplander Doom? TBN doesn't really work, because a lot of the damage comes from scaling autos. You'd maybe mitigate one hit. DM doesn't work, because it's magical only. You're left with cross-class Rampart, Shadow Wall, and Living Dead. Any fight which places sustained pressure on the tank is not a good fight for DRK, either. I can't channel TBN indefinitely against a consistently hard hitting mob (especially ones which require you to hold out for as long as you can against a stacking buff), and the rest of the cooldown kit is too sparse to offer great alternatives. There are definitely some significant gaps here that need to be addressed.

[Launched]

I don't think that TBN single-handedly solves all of DRK's mitigation problems, either. TBN specifically works on single hit tankbusters. How do you think it would fare against a multi-hit physical tankbuster, such as A7S' Uplander Doom? TBN doesn't really work, because a lot of the damage comes from scaling autos. You'd maybe mitigate one hit.

Shields work perfectly fine on multi hit tankbusters. They're not like Sheltron where they fade after one hit no matter how much damage it does. A 10k shield reduces the same amount of damage whether it's used on a single 60k hit or 6 10k hits. A Rampart on that same damage would reduce damage by 12k total. The only real difference is that the shield mitigates all up front and pretty much negates one hit completely, while other cooldowns reduce much less on each hit but the damage reduced adds up over time.
Using your A7S example, TBN would be really good there. A TBN by itself could probably reduce one of the attacks to 0 (with some shield left over for the second hit), so you wouldn't get that stack of vuln up. Combined with Adloquium and Stoneskin, you would have been able to completely avoid 2 or 3 stacks which would reduce the damage from the last 3 hits.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Using your A7S example, TBN would be really good there. A TBN by itself could probably reduce one of the attacks to 0 (with some shield left over for the second hit), so you wouldn't get that stack of vuln up. Combined with Adloquium and Stoneskin, you would have been able to completely avoid 2 or 3 stacks which would reduce the damage from the last 3 hits.

If you had TBN on synched content because running it unsynched would be too easy... I wish there was a 8 man raid roulette for those situations and wish there was an EX trial roulette...

[Mithron]

After spending a lot more time with DRK and getting more used to it, I've grown accustomed to Dark Arts Siphon Strike and The Blackest Night, but I would still rather it be designed in such a way that we have something else to spend our excess MP on rather than Dark Arts Siphon Strike as it really hurts my hand and fingers having to keep up with how fast you need to press buttons as DRK, especially when Blood Weapon Delirium get going. This problem will only get worse as we get higher and higher skill speed, so I think we should start thinking about a cap to skill/spell speed and design around that so things don't go too fast.

[Eyvhokan]

DA has its own 2s cooldown so that will be limited in itself.

I bind DA to 'q' which is very available for me to hit easily, which might be something to consider.

[Crater]

TBN generally works fine on multi-hit tankbusters. The math is pretty straightforward: TBN is stronger mitigation than a 20% reduction up until the point where the incoming damage is higher than your max HP, at which point mitigation will start to pull ahead.

In the specific case of Uplander Doom (which is sort of unique in comparison to multi-hit tankbusters everywhere else, in that it does more damage but takes a LONG time to finish), TBN would fall behind Rampart, but would likely beat or pull even with Inner Beast, if you assume that every vuln stack takes effect - but TBN would almost certainly reduce the first hit to 0, meaning that you\\'d have one fewer stack by the time it finished. In practice, I think it would have still been competitive had Midas happened with all of the level 70 skills in play.

TBN would fare a little worse on a solo-tanked Holy Scourge, but everybody used invuln skills for that, and you were technically supposed to split the damage anyway.

[Lyth]

TBN can certainly be used as an adjunct in multi-hit tankbusters. The problem, however, is that you generally can't use it in isolation, and the rest of the kit is lacking, especially in heavily physical fights.

There were two reasons why I cited A7S in particular. First, Uplander Doom isn't a single hit tankbuster masquerading as a multi-hit one, like Bahamut's Claw or Gobrush Rushgob. There is a fairly long interval between each individual hit. So while it can mitigate an individual hit and perhaps negate a single stack, you're not going to eat the rest of the five vuln stack damage unmitigated. You're forced to use at least one of your longer recast cooldowns, and you don't really have many of these to spare.

Which brings me to my second reason. Historically, DRK wasn't a popular choice for A7S prog, and this was at a time when DRK had access to Foresight and Dark Dance to smooth out some of the damage, and also at a time when it didn't offer the lowest dps out of the three tanks. If a fight like this was released today, DRK would be a liability, both in speedruns and prog.

...

As a tank, you're generally tuned in to encounter damage patterns. Even if you're not actively tanking, you very quickly pick up on the timings of cleaves and tankbusters on your co-tank. What makes TBN fun is the fact that it keeps you "active" even when you're not. It's not just a barrier ("The law of the land? The authority of a name? These are tools cowards use to escape harm. We have no need of shields figurative or literal.") TBN's barrier may embody regret, but the follow-up Bloodspiller embodies revenge.

The problem is, while you could very well TBN every tankbuster and cleave on yourself and your co-tank, you generally won't outside of buff windows (and there too, the true value is not in the extra Bloodspiller, but in the fact that you cannot fit an extra DA on HS). I don't think that making this a consistent dps gain would dramatically drive up the skill ceiling, any more than remembering AoE timestamps and popping Third Eye has made SAM more difficult to play. If anything, many of these big hits are telegraphed 'TANKBUSTER' with an ominous auto-attack pause, a dramatic wind-up, and/or a very specific 2 second castbar, so any one of these things quickly sets off your spideysenses to pop the button. You just need to make the shield strong enough that it doesn't break if you just throw it in on a random auto.

[NymeriaVelaris]

I don't think that making this a consistent dps gain would dramatically drive up the skill ceiling, any more than remembering AoE timestamps and popping Third Eye has made SAM more difficult to play. .

Again, the comparison to Third Eye doesnt fit, Third Eye doesnt work like TBN. Its easier and more reliable to proc. It has less risk involved because there are no costs and its also not your most important mitigation skill at the same time. On top of that it cant be used as often as TBN because as DPS there is no incoming damage all the time.

The skill ceiling would greatly increase if you have to to successfully break 3-4 TBNs per minute to maintain max dps on top of what DRK is currently doing (while also still mitigating properly when its really needed).
On top of that there are the issues with non savage content/rising ilvl i already mentioned, which will make it even more difficult to proc TBN as often as possible.

Making DRKs DPS dependend on encounter damage is a bad idea, thats the reason why SE designed TBN to be neither dps gain nor loss.