"Pull Everything" in Dungeon Parties

[Eldevern]

you implied it by saying "Not everyone mains tanks". it implies that you need to main a tank to handle big pulls...which...is uh...laughable.

This IS an a priori.

If you had a proper understanding of what I said (my whole sentenceS), you would have understood I was talking about gear! Gear matters especially during levelling. And depending of our main, our priority for gear is not necessary going to tank gear. And it means too when we reach the highest level (mean 70 in SB). White HQ and Blue is somewhat different. No?

I should have wrote, not

Players who want big pull seem to imagine we all play tank as main and then we necessary have the last highest gear. What if not? They forget this is not only a matter of keeping enimity but damages we and healer can handle.

but

Players who want big pull seem to imagine we all play tank as main and then we necessary have the last highest gear. What if not? They forget this is not only a matter of keeping enimity but damages we and healer can handle.

[Fynlar]

Anyway, playing tank myself often enough... lettingsomeone die just because you can is just bad tanking.

If making a stand over people who think they're qualified to make pulls despite not being the tank makes me a bad tank, then sign me up, I guess.

Most people that aren't bucketheads seem to think I tank just fine for the most part, though.

[White_Wolf_X]

I pretty much go at my speed when tanking, which depends on what i'm in the mood for.. sometimes "slow" pulls or normal pulls etc .. and other times big pulls .. but hell if healer Ask me to pull more then i most likely will.
If a dps ask i will most likely not change anything cause well .. to me tank and healer control the speed.

[Tagihi]

Pull Everything! well even i don't there is few reasons for,

1 is healer won't keep up easily with you as tank even you do buff ur self.
2 DPS are terrible, singel target 1 monster and have no idea of pos / rotations
3 dungeon run takes alot longer when keep wipe.

I say to my self, what is limit for this healer in my team?
but pull 3 mobs at time when you know this are very weak once and they will die quickly so why not bring more.
first timers tankers i let them be to learn the dungeon.

[Faliandra]

I had a DRK do that the other day. Couldn't be bothered to use cooldowns, repeatedly died due to no fault of our whm.

oh boy, i HATE wannabe tanks who pull the whole dungeon without using cooldowns. I REALLY do. But this topic did not specify on "tanks who pull big without using cooldowns"
but merely on "tanks who pull big". So thats a huge difference. Tanks who dont use CDs can go kindly throw themselves into the nearest fire.

The thing is...I trust in my abilities as a tank. Especially as a PLD. Even if I get a leaf first-time healer, there are situations where it doesnt matter when I go for the big pulls.
If I have my most important CDs up, Hallowed is up and I have a friend with me whos a caster and theres a LB bar....I can just HG into the pull,have my friend burst stuff with LB and then use my other cooldowns + Clemency if needed
while the last bits of the pull are being killed. If the healer cant handle THAT, he would also manage to let you die on smaller pulls. The problem is that people fail to realize that them being overly careful is EXACTLY what makes these dungeons harder than they actually are.

I've really had so many leafies successfully healing through my big pulls that I'd like to say that I'm doing my part as good as possible to not put too much stress on a healer.

As for the "consequence" thing....I dont know, I feel I'm punished harder to endure through a super slow boring babypull dungeon than by a penalty. It doesnt matter if I'm a healer, tank or dps...I got them all to 60.
I got about half to 70 already. I do my best, I read my tooltips and figure something out. Now mind you, I do not read up on the best possible raid openers and rotations when I'm simply lvling a class from 60 to 70,
but my DMG is usually always more than decent to warrant larger pulls. As a healer, I can handle it too.

I do not think of myself as a player with exceptional skills, I really dont think I am. But I make an effort. And a consistent carebear mode isnt gonna make anyone get better.
I admit I have pulled ahead of tanks many times. Especially as a healer. Why? Because SHOWING and PROVING it to them how it actually works is gonna do more than trying to talk in theory and have them say "no".
Ofc some tanks get pissed, but most tanks go along with it. The other week, I pulled ahead and the tank refused to take those 2-3 mobs that were hitting me...So I just kept healing myself while the 2 dps killed them.
See. Didnt even need the useless tank. If I can tank those 2-3 adds as a healer, why cant YOU (not specifically "you" but the tank) do it with a couple more adds?

blablabla.... Enjoy being Blacklisted by fellow tanks and enjoy those long que time lel.

Bai

blablabla.....I WOULD enjoy that if it actually MEANT not being able to be matched with them in DF anymore. But sadly it apparently still can happen.
If waiting a few minutes more means, I'd be guaranteed a decent tank, then oh boy, count me in!

Bai o/


(but...really....you dont realize youre doing me a favor that way, are you? o.o)

[Fynlar]

Gosh y'all act like theres actually any consequences for wiping/dying.

In a good portion of all the rando groups I've ever joined, there is usually someone that just immediately bails from the party if there is ever any wipe (or sometimes even if just that person dies).

In a good portion of THOSE parties, their bailing causes a cascade effect that just makes the group fall apart completely.

More than once, this has happened to me after making some progress in an instance, essentially causing all the progress to be lost.

So yeah, I try to avoid the wipes in most cases.

Honestly, pulling small makes less of an impact than most people think it does. As long as the tank isn't just standing around inbetween fights to pick his nose or whatever and keeps a steady pace, it usually goes around as fast as it would if they tried to pull big anyway.

I know a lot of BLM -- and myself, as a SMN -- who will start boss fights or early engage a pack in order to keep Enochian/spend Ruin IV procs.

I don't know anything about SMN but I can say that the Enochian argument doesn't hold weight anymore, because now Enochian can be maintained indefinitely without needing a target just by using Transpose. If Enochian ever drops without them intending to, that is 100% the BLM's error nowadays.

I admit I have pulled ahead of tanks many times. Especially as a healer. Why? Because SHOWING and PROVING it to them how it actually works is gonna do more than trying to talk in theory and have them say "no".
Ofc some tanks get pissed, but most tanks go along with it. The other week, I pulled ahead and the tank refused to take those 2-3 mobs that were hitting me...So I just kept healing myself while the 2 dps killed them.
See. Didnt even need the useless tank. If I can tank those 2-3 adds as a healer, why cant YOU (the tank) do it with a couple more adds?

You're not SHOWING or PROVING anything other than being an annoyance.

A tank has their reasons for pulling as much as they do. Respect them if you want to be respected back, or just play tank yourself.

[ilea]

I don't know anything about SMN but I can say that the Enochian argument doesn't hold weight anymore, because now Enochian can be maintained indefinitely without needing a target just by using Transpose. If Enochian ever drops without them intending to, that is 100% the BLM's error nowadays.

Post-60 SMN now has a proc that changes Ruin I and Ruin III into a more powerful spell, Ruin IV. It lasts 30 seconds, kind of like brand new Enochian in 3.x -- and you can't proc it manually, since it's all based on your pet. I've been guilty of casting it on a boss before the tank has pulled, but this typically only happens when the tank lingers for 10+ seconds.

Agreed about wipes though. There are actual consequences to wiping, not simply game-wise. People only have so much time to play, and not everyone enjoys a wipe.

If the party wipes because the DPS or healer told me to pull more, though, that's on them. (Or on me, if I told the tank to go hard.)

[Faliandra]

In a good portion of all the rando groups I've ever joined, there is usually someone that just immediately bails from the party if there is ever any wipe (or sometimes even if just that person dies).

In a good portion of THOSE parties, their bailing causes a cascade effect that just makes the group fall apart completely.

More than once, this has happened to me after making some progress in an instance, essentially causing all the progress to be lost.

I've run so many dungeons and I dont think I've ever had anyone leave cos of a wipe or two. If it did happen,then that mustve happened so rarely that I cant even remember.
Not that I dont believe you,but thats never been an issue for me.

You're not SHOWING or PROVING anything other than being an annoyance.

A tank has their reasons for pulling as much as they do. Respect them if you want to be respected back, or just play tank yourself.

Most retarded argument ever made in history "just play tank yourself".
Whats the use of it? A tank cant pull miracles out of their a** if the rest of the party is twiddling their thumbs. If I'm stuck with a subpar heal-only healer and 2 dps who think auto-attack or single target "rotation" is the way to rock a big pull, there's nothing much I can do. Cant even do that much dmg as a tank. Theres a reason why I main healer and play WHM in dungeons...because I have the best tools to influence/control most of it: I can make the big pulls work, even if the tank isnt so decent and I can add a significant amount of dmg to speed up the run. Cant do that much as a tank. So yeah...useless suggestion is useless.

[Paladinleeds]

Theres a reason why I main healer and play WHM in dungeons...because I have the best tools to influence/control most of it: I can make the big pulls work, even if the tank isnt so decent and I can add a significant amount of dmg to speed up the run.

That's the thing, if I'm tanking, and you feel confident we can do more, please just ask. There's only one situation in which I'll say no really, and that's if I'm new to the dungeon (which I will mention anyway, I just tend to be extra cautious if I'm new because I don't want things to go wrong and therefore I take a "Better safe than sorry" approach). I'm generally a steady tank, but am almost always OK with going for more if people ask. Communication will go a long way with me. I'll work with the group's wishes most of the time, but I'm no mind reader, so you need to tell me!

Why does 1 person get to decide the flow of the dungeon? If everyone else wants to pull large, why not oblige them?

The group might want it but not have the capability to do it. As a tank, part of your job is gauging the limits of the group with regards to pulls. If they're asking for more than they can handle and insist on it and you wipe, you could still get blamed for it. It does happen. So you have to know the group's limits.

[Avatre]

Always test your party on the first pull(if you are comfortable yourself when tanking and able to take on larger pulls). If your party is not composed of high damage AoE users...definitely no large pulls. If they have good AoE, then sure medium-large, just need to test the first pull on them and see what they can do. If it takes a LONG time(i.e. BLM using Fire IV on a mob of 6+ and refuses to adjust for Fire II), then consider smaller pulls to not tax your healer too much.

If the healer is pulling...let them almost die before taking over their mobs.
If DPS is pulling...let them die as most healers won't keep them up if they are purposely pulling stuff(different if the DPS takes agro while using all the enmity reduction skills).