Possible AST nerf

[Exiled_Tonberry]

. How veteran developers failed to see that even though they basically did something similar (and regretted it) is beyond me. When it comes to healers it looks like they have a very, very hard time.

This. From the second I heard that AST was going to be a WHM/SCH hybrid, I was worried.
It's incredibly hard to balance a hybrid. They're either too strong, or too weak.
But even then, they managed to do it. 3.2 was perfect in terms of healer balance. So why did they keep going!? They just kept buffing it until it's now ridiculously strong and no healer can ever hope to match it. 20% Balance is simply to much of a game changer to not have.

[Miste]

My god that is the definition of nitpicking if I've ever seen one. The point is diurnal aspected benefic is a better spell than the one it was copied from. AST's regen copy spell is better than WHM's regen spell.

You know what I meant, and you're nitpicking to save face, and you're well aware of it.

My regen post was not directed to you since I quoted an entirely different person if you notice and my post was clear I was only talking about the "regen ticks". So how can I be the one who nitpicked you here?
You chose to reply to it and therefore you must accept that I might reply back to correct you. Your 'point' about Asp. Benefic is literally arguing that the person next in line at McDonalds got one more fry in their box than you. It's so pointless.


Save face? Nope I have no reason to need to do that, but maybe you should look up the concept of Psychological projection.

That's either a deliberate misrepresentation of my point, or you should read between the lines better.

Never said AST should do it specifically to increase the duration of HOTs. Why are you talking about a point I haven't said or made?

The reality is, ASTs often times extend the duration of HOTs when they have a high-priority target with balance or something on them already.

Basically, those HOTs are getting a duration increase as a bonus for extending a high priority card target anyway. You're the AST main, you should know what I meant. Why are you trying to misrepresent my words?

Not misinterpreting your words; like you said I main AST and I am guessing you don't? So I think you misunderstand what I am saying here. If we wanna get silly here: I never said that you said you should do it specifically to extend the HoTs. I was just pointing out to you that no AST would go out of their way to Celestial HoTs so your scenario doesn't happen often or really benefit ASTs.

If a regen of some sort happens to be on when I use Celestial or AoE damage happens and I heal with Asp. Helios then Celestial then sure it extends it (I never argued this point), but I already pointed out to you that WHM has something similar...which you, for some reason, didn't comment on. AST can increase duration of effects and WHM can reduce cooldowns to use the effects more often.

So can you explain to me why it matters that every 2 minutes an AST can potentially extend their HoTs? (even though most of the time that isn't what will happen) <----this is my point. Why does it matter?

That is why I am saying it is nitpicking. Why does it matter? You've yet to explain why every 2 minutes a possible extension of HoTs that will likely just over heal is actually making AST vastly superior to WHM. I just don't get what point you are trying to make here. The main issue is AST has higher raid DPS contribution than WHM not the healing since WHM and AST heal for around the same which SCH lagging a bit which is why they are getting buffed up tomorrow. If AST and WHM healed for too much then wouldn't they be nerfing them to bring them down to SCH and not the other way around?

1. Diurnal aspected benefic is a factually superior spell to Regen. You conceded this in your own post, but you're shifting the goalpost by addressing the 'regen' mechanic instead of the spell to make it look like I'm wrong on all accounts. Again, stop that. I can see when you do this, and you're starting to annoy me when you do, because you know what I meant, as well as I, but you dress up words like a politician, and I suspect you're doing it deliberately.

No, I clarified to you that my post was "only talking about regens" so technically your reply to me about the initial heal on Asp Benefic is wrong (just accept the fact you misunderstood my regen post and incorrectly tried to correct it; would save us a lot of time here).

Initial heal is not a regen and my post about it clearly states I was only speaking of the regen tick aspect of the spells and nothing else since the person I replied to specifically said AST had "stronger healing AND regens than WHM" If I am addressing the regen aspect specifically I cannot bring initial heals into it because an initial heal is not a regen; it wouldn't be a proper test

Even if you compare the spells fully including the initial heal the difference is <1%, but you are forgetting Medica II has a stronger regen than Asp. Helios...so aren't we back where we started and the Asp. Beneifc/Regen/Medica II/Asp. Helios are basically really close to same power in the end? So my initial post about the regens I tested being very close in power still stands.

2. Already did. Several times. Hell, did it in my very previous post before this one. Sorry if I don't write that post out for every person I respond to when I'm actually addressing something else specifically. Should I put it in my signature

Happy? Now respond to that because your nitpicking is actually annoying me and it gets us nowhere.

Psychological projection.

Sigh, again, you replied to the regen post. Don't reply if you are afraid to get challenged on what you say in your replies.

That post you link still tries to discuss healing potency as the issue, so I can't really take you seriously.

Nerf AST healing potency? Accomplishes nothing since AST still has cards and it pretty much just throws the burden on your co-healer since they can't tune the fights based on AST's weaker healing than SCH/WHM because then the fights would be too easy to heal and potentially cause solo healing issues.

Buff WHM healing potency? Accomplishes nothing since they aren't lacking in healing in the first place and potential problem of solo healing which kicks out both SCH and AST as a result.

Buff WHM utility? Yes.
Buff WHM healer DPS spells? Yes.
Nerf Balance to 10% (5% AoE). Yes, this could help, but it doesn't change much really. I think the better course would be to bring WHM utility up not bring AST utility down.

[Sakei]

This, and it's clear it's a developer favorite because they're LOATHE to balance it. Each successive patch has made it better and better to the point where it's honestly so far over powered that everything is going to need to be overhauled to fix it.

The class was very broken at the start. It took some balancing to get them right. I'm not sure why they decided to break the others that were fine top begin with. They really need to ask themselves what they feel a healer should do. Look at the 3 and see which ones do each of those things right, and boost the others to equalize them. Then, and only then, can you consider lowering anything, but it has to happen to all 3 at once. Nerfs almost always go too far in the wrong direction.

[Reilyn]

That is why I am saying it is nitpicking. Why does it matter? You've yet to explain why every 2 minutes a possible extension of HoTs that will likely just over heal is actually making AST vastly superior to WHM.

Going to shorten this for you:

My point was never "AST has vastly superior healing to WHM". I've never said that. You can't point to anywhere in my post where I did. Got it?

My point was AST actually has a better version of the Regen spell. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You're making the leaps and assumptions here. I never said "AST has vastly superior healing to WHM" anywhere in any of my posts. Stop pretending I did.



The majority of your post is getting into regen spell vs regen effect and goes back into the same linguistic nitpicking I just said I'm not going to deal with.

I'm just going to repeat myself; Diurnal sect aspected benefic is a better spell than regen. That's all I was getting at. That's all I said. I never said AST healing is vastly superior to WHM because I know it isn't.

That post you link still tries to discuss healing potency as the issue, so I can't really take you seriously.

Then you didn't read the post. I discussed the exact opposite.

More than half of it was referring to the fact that healing output wasn't the main issue that benched AST in 3.0. I ended the post asserting that even if AST's healing potencies were reverted to what they were in 3.0 they would still put WHM on the bench because of a functional card system that buffed raid dps.

You didn't read my post at all, so stop the dismissive crap. If you actually read my post, you'd find you're repeating the very same points i was implying by these statements:

If AST's card system was as good as it is now back in Gordias with lower healing potencies, I would put money on WHM warming the bench.

While they're at it, WHM may need some sort of party dps buff, because they've been facing the problem of being benched for years because their AOE, and powerhealing tends to be overkill outside of the odd solo-healer strats for something on farm.

So congrats, we agree. You just chose not to read the post that shows we do despite the fact we see the same problems because you read like 2 sentences before your 'holier-than-thou' attitude kicked in.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

AST is far too strong in healing, is untouchable in reliable shielding, has massive raid wide dps buffs...

How exactly can you look at that and say it's not OP?

[Sakei]

AST is far too strong in healing, is untouchable in reliable shielding, has massive raid wide dps buffs...

How exactly can you look at that and say it's not OP?

Because I've played the class, and it just isn't. They are an effective healing class. If the others that used to blow astro out of the water in every single area have since been nerfed into oblivion, there is your answer. If you watch a pro boxer take on another pro boxer, and they both do well, that is where you want to be. You don't need to nerf one of the boxers because a 90 year old man can't put up a decent fight against him. You don't ever nerf the thing that works right if you want your game to work.

[Enla]

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Oh I know precisely how it was in the beginning, however that just furthers my point. AST has only ever been in perfect balance /once/ with the other healers, after it's initial and VERY needed boost. Now however it's just too strong and nerfing all three classes and only continues to accrue that sentiment with each successive patch. Nerfing all three classes right now in equal measure would not change that. Especially for SCH which is being out performed at every turn. Hell, all they'd really need to do is lower the potency of Noct, give SCH an instant Adlo, AND lower the potency of balance in order to bring AST's into be in better alignment with the other two. Even just nerfing balance will accomplish this, which is hardly the too far you're speaking of. AST cannot be as good as the other two at their specific jobs, or better in the case of Noct stance, AND also have huge utility at the same time. Something needs to give.

[Miste]

I'm just going to repeat myself; Diurnal sect aspected benefic is a better spell than regen. That's all I was getting at. That's all I said. I never said AST healing is vastly superior to WHM because I know it isn't.

So after all this you basically had no point and your reply to me didn't actually mean anything?

Okay...at least we cleared that up.

It isn't really a better spell. It's basically the same spell because like I said...one more fry than the person behind you means literally nothing especially since you got an extra pickle on your burger than them anyway. (Medica II being the pickle since it ticks higher)

I do apologize if I made "assumptions", but I assumed you had a point you were trying to make since you were so stuck on Asp. Benefic being better.

In general when you try to correct someone you have a point to make not just...aimlessly trying to correct something they weren't even talking about. I mean you just said you know their healing is about the same so.....uh did you really argue all that just to try to prove me wrong about my simple post comparing the regens with in-game tests?

I'm baffled at this point.

can you be an adult and stop the dismissive crap

I have been cordial with you until you brought in the "save face" thing. So calling me the non-adult is kind of ironic. Hmm seems you edited this out...and added

you read like 2 sentences before your 'holier-than-thou' attitude kicked in.

I don't have that attitude. Did you actually look at your response to me after I said you were nitpicking? Any time you gave me passive aggressive all I did was bat it back to you in kind. If you don't want that kind of thing back at you maybe you shouldn't throw it in the first place.

I've only responded to you how you have treated me.

Also I never dismissed what you said I read it all the problem is you said this:

So no, AST healing potencies don't need to be as high as they are relative to the other healers.

This is why I said you are still talking about healing potency. ^ this is healing potency is it not? I mean I can't just pull this quote out of the air. That's why I said you are still talking about healing potency because its right there in black and white. You still mentioned it. I mean if that is your opinion sure fine, but anyone who raids savage knows healing potency is not the issue if you want WHM to be as good as AST.

[Reilyn]

Not dealing with the debate of conduct. Waste of time and energy.

As for the actual discussion:

This is why I said you are still talking about healing potency. ^ this is healing potency is it not? I mean I can't just pull this quote out of the air. That's why I said you are still talking about healing potency because its right there in black and white. You still mentioned it. I mean if that is your opinion sure fine, but anyone who raids savage knows healing potency is not the issue if you want WHM to be as good as AST.

In proper context, I was saying their healing potencies didn't need to be so high when they bring the utility they do.

They could be lower, and still bench WHMs.

You left out the other half of the very same short paragraph you took that quote from, and I don't know why. Here's the whole paragraph, and the statement before it to add context to what I said:

If AST's card system was as good as it is now back in Gordias with lower healing potencies, I would put money on WHM warming the bench.

So no, AST healing potencies don't need to be as high as they are relative to the other healers. Their card system is just that strong now. WHM needs to bring something more to the table.

It looks like you're selectively ignoring things when its convenient.
How about you stop taking things out of its context?

[Kabzy]

AST is far too strong in healing, is untouchable in reliable shielding, has massive raid wide dps buffs...

How exactly can you look at that and say it's not OP?

Because I've played the class, and it just isn't.

So you're just bad? Lets not balance jobs around people who can't even play them properly. kthxbai