Possible AST nerf

[Miste]

AST is stepping on both healers toes. Stronger healing and regens than WHM

Not sure why you think this?

I have i317 WHM and AST and I just tested the Regens.

AST Aspected Benefic regen average 2.8-2.9k tick
WHM Regen average 2.8-2.9k tick
Result: Basically the same

AST Aspected Helios regen average 800-850 tick.
WHM Medica II regen average 900-950 tick.
Result: Medica II regen ticks higher than AST's Asp. Helios

*all tests done with no extra buffs (no MND party bonus, no Largesse or any other healing boosting abilities minus the Diurnal Sect to get the regens to work)

Same exact gear minus the weapons. Both weapons are the i320 Susano though. So I am not sure why you think this...I guess you didn't test it first?

Even if mathematically one is better than the other the difference is obviously REALLY tiny and Medica II actually ticks higher than Aspected Helios.

[Jijifli]

Even if mathematically one is better than the other the difference is obviously REALLY tiny and Medica II actually ticks higher than Aspected Helios.

And has 5 yard radius advantage.

[Mikhaill]

AST is stepping on both healers toes. Stronger healing and regens than WHM, stronger shielding than SCH, better unique utility than both of them. I really don't know what SE is thinking anymore.

Yeah but at least WHM has what's saving them
from still being in the spot with Assize + Asylum with the new CD's of the Lilies.
5 healing skills including those not using MP, PLUS Thin Air. WHM can hold their own at least.
IMO, all they did was make WHM boring to play as.
No real new or fun skills to use and stripping away the ones we had.

SCH just a mess in every way right now. The job is just pure frustration right now.
I really wanna know why they upped the MP cost of their mitigation skills. It literally makes no sense
for a job that utilizes in shields pretty much nerfed them. Mind boggling.

[Reilyn]

AST Aspected Benefic regen average 2.8-2.9k tick
WHM Regen average 2.8-2.9k tick
Result: Basically the same

AST aspected benefic has a 200 potency initial heal portion.
WHM regen does not. Seems like you forgotten that?

The potency of diurnal aspected benefic is actually 220 initial, 154 per tick after sect bonus. It does one less tick than regen, but the initial heal more than makes up for it, and AST has the option of using time dialation + celestial opposition every once in a while to increase duration.

Exiled_Tonberry was actually right to say that AST regen is stepping on WHM toes in the regen department. It's close when it comes to medica 2 vs diurnal aspected helios, but AST's regen equivalent is just better than WHM's for the added use of being a passable upfront heal, on top of already beating its total potency, and still having the option to extend its duration.

Don't like to have to do this 'pick apart'-thing, but it just keeps coming.

Noct Astro needs to have more potent shields because they don't have any access to regen

SCH's regen is tied to one fairy, has a 21 second effect with a minute cooldown, and overheals alot. Most of the time in full parties, people don't just wait to let the HOT do the work, which is why things like medica2, and diurnal aspected helios tend to overheal.

If you're counting the fairy embrace heal as a sort of regen, it's there to alleviate the fact SCH doesn't have benefic 2/Cure 2. Mind you, it has been nerfed every expansion release, and it's healing potency is lower than the displayed 250 would have you believe since it's a pet.

no shield deploy

Really? A 2 min CD is an excuse?

nor does it have any free mitigation debuffs from Eos.

It increases each player's magic defense stat on their character sheet by 20% of what it was, and that's the only free mitigation buff Eos gives, which is almost the equivalent of putting on another set of magically-resistant pants. Again, another 2min CD. AST has the option of setting up the bole if you're desperate for mitigation, which would likely be more effective than Fey Covenant anyway.

All of this isn't convincing me that AST's shields are entitled to have a cheaper MP cost, and no cast time in the case nocturnal sect's aspected benefic's on top of superior shielding all the time in nocturnal sect. You're not making a very good case.

[Miste]

AST aspected benefic has a 200 potency initial heal portion.
WHM regen does not. Seems like you forgotten that?

The potency of diurnal aspected benefic is actually 220 initial, 154 per tick after sect bonus. It does one less tick than regen, but the initial heal more than makes up for it, and AST has the option of using time dialation + celestial opposition every once in a while to increase duration.

Exiled_Tonberry was actually right to say that AST regen is stepping on WHM toes in the regen department. It's close when it comes to medica 2 vs diurnal aspected helios, but AST's regen equivalent is just better than WHM's for the added use of being a passable upfront heal, on top of already beating its total potency, and still having the option to extend its duration.

You didn't really "pick apart" anything for my post. In fact it seems you have not read it carefully.

IF you notice Exiled said "more powerful healing and regens"

I knew the regens part was false since I play both so I compared them to get the numbers.

"Regens"

The initial heal on Asp. Benefic isn't a "Regen", it's an initial heal. Seems like you have forgotten that?

So you are just nitpicking now to try to prove a point (a useless point) when I was just correcting the incorrect information that AST actually has more powerful HoTs than WHM.

If you compare WHMs Regen's extra tick versus the initial heal of Asp. Benefic the result is still: Basically the same. The difference is <1%. Are we REALLY going to nitpick that? Yes, you can extend it's duration every 2 minutes, but that is a niche of AST just like WHM Lillies (and Critical heals) can lower the cooldown of Asylum/Assize. AST increases duration to get more effect and WHM can reduce the cooldown to use the effect more often. It ends up to be pretty much the same thing in the end just different methods.

*PS. No good AST would use Celestial Opposition specifically to increase regens only; nor would they use time dilation just to increase a regen either.

Thing is...why does it matter if AST and WHM heal for around the same amount with their asp benefic/regen/medica II/asp. helios regen spells?

Healing power is not the issue so why does it become one if someone just corrects incorrect information?

WHM is lacking utility. Higher healing NEVER means anything as long as the content can be properly healed. The main thing about the "meta", as people are forgetting, is the DPS that healer can contribute either by buffs or by direct healer DPS spells.

WHM has the highest healer DPS damage. It doesn't make up for Balance, but it closes the gap to closer than some people think. So WHM just needs some extra utility or up the DPS they can personally do.

If they increase WHM's healing power to above ASTs right now what does this accomplish? The meta won't change because WHM still cannot do as much DPS as AST unless WHM ends up SO overpowered at healing that groups no longer need two healers. If that is your goal then we might as well just delete SCH and AST and only have one healer job: White Mage.

So please as a WHM main as well as AST. Argue the real issue of no WHM utility. Not nitpick regens trying to claim one is sooo much better than the other when that isn't even true or the problem.

[Reilyn]

The initial heal on Asp. Benefic isn't a "Regen", it's an initial heal. Seems like you have forgotten that?

So you are just nitpicking now to try to prove a point

My god that is the definition of nitpicking if I've ever seen one. The point is diurnal aspected benefic is a better spell than the one it was copied from. AST's regen copy spell is better than WHM's regen spell.

You know what I meant, and you're nitpicking to save face, and you're well aware of it.

*PS. No good AST would use Celestial Opposition specifically to increase regens only; nor would they use time dilation just to increase a regen either.

That's either a deliberate misrepresentation of my point, or you should read between the lines better.

Never said AST should do it specifically to increase the duration of HOTs. Why are you talking about a point I haven't said or made?

The reality is, ASTs often times extend the duration of HOTs when they have a high-priority target with balance or something on them already.

Basically, those HOTs are getting a duration increase as a bonus for extending a high priority card target anyway. You're the AST main, you should know what I meant. Why are you trying to misrepresent my words?

So please as a WHM main as well as AST. Argue the real issue of no WHM utility. Not nitpick regens trying to claim one is sooo much better than the other when that isn't even true or the problem.

1. Diurnal aspected benefic is a factually superior spell to Regen. You conceded this in your own post, but you're shifting the goalpost by addressing the 'regen' mechanic instead of the spell to make it look like I'm wrong on all accounts. Again, stop that. I can see when you do this, and you're starting to annoy me when you do, because you know what I meant, as well as I, but you dress up words like a politician, and I suspect you're doing it deliberately.

2. Already did. Several times. Hell, did it in my very previous post before this one. Sorry if I don't write that post out for every person I respond to when I'm actually addressing something else specifically. Should I put it in my signature?

Here:

...

Happy? Now respond to that because your nitpicking is actually annoying me and it gets us nowhere.

[Miste]

My god that is the definition of nitpicking if I've ever seen one. The point is diurnal aspected benefic is a better spell than the one it was copied from. AST's regen copy spell is better than WHM's regen spell.

You know what I meant, and you're nitpicking to save face, and you're well aware of it.

My regen post was not directed to you since I quoted an entirely different person if you notice and my post was clear I was only talking about the "regen ticks". So how can I be the one who nitpicked you here?
You chose to reply to it and therefore you must accept that I might reply back to correct you. Your 'point' about Asp. Benefic is literally arguing that the person next in line at McDonalds got one more fry in their box than you. It's so pointless.


Save face? Nope I have no reason to need to do that, but maybe you should look up the concept of Psychological projection.

That's either a deliberate misrepresentation of my point, or you should read between the lines better.

Never said AST should do it specifically to increase the duration of HOTs. Why are you talking about a point I haven't said or made?

The reality is, ASTs often times extend the duration of HOTs when they have a high-priority target with balance or something on them already.

Basically, those HOTs are getting a duration increase as a bonus for extending a high priority card target anyway. You're the AST main, you should know what I meant. Why are you trying to misrepresent my words?

Not misinterpreting your words; like you said I main AST and I am guessing you don't? So I think you misunderstand what I am saying here. If we wanna get silly here: I never said that you said you should do it specifically to extend the HoTs. I was just pointing out to you that no AST would go out of their way to Celestial HoTs so your scenario doesn't happen often or really benefit ASTs.

If a regen of some sort happens to be on when I use Celestial or AoE damage happens and I heal with Asp. Helios then Celestial then sure it extends it (I never argued this point), but I already pointed out to you that WHM has something similar...which you, for some reason, didn't comment on. AST can increase duration of effects and WHM can reduce cooldowns to use the effects more often.

So can you explain to me why it matters that every 2 minutes an AST can potentially extend their HoTs? (even though most of the time that isn't what will happen) <----this is my point. Why does it matter?

That is why I am saying it is nitpicking. Why does it matter? You've yet to explain why every 2 minutes a possible extension of HoTs that will likely just over heal is actually making AST vastly superior to WHM. I just don't get what point you are trying to make here. The main issue is AST has higher raid DPS contribution than WHM not the healing since WHM and AST heal for around the same which SCH lagging a bit which is why they are getting buffed up tomorrow. If AST and WHM healed for too much then wouldn't they be nerfing them to bring them down to SCH and not the other way around?

1. Diurnal aspected benefic is a factually superior spell to Regen. You conceded this in your own post, but you're shifting the goalpost by addressing the 'regen' mechanic instead of the spell to make it look like I'm wrong on all accounts. Again, stop that. I can see when you do this, and you're starting to annoy me when you do, because you know what I meant, as well as I, but you dress up words like a politician, and I suspect you're doing it deliberately.

No, I clarified to you that my post was "only talking about regens" so technically your reply to me about the initial heal on Asp Benefic is wrong (just accept the fact you misunderstood my regen post and incorrectly tried to correct it; would save us a lot of time here).

Initial heal is not a regen and my post about it clearly states I was only speaking of the regen tick aspect of the spells and nothing else since the person I replied to specifically said AST had "stronger healing AND regens than WHM" If I am addressing the regen aspect specifically I cannot bring initial heals into it because an initial heal is not a regen; it wouldn't be a proper test

Even if you compare the spells fully including the initial heal the difference is <1%, but you are forgetting Medica II has a stronger regen than Asp. Helios...so aren't we back where we started and the Asp. Beneifc/Regen/Medica II/Asp. Helios are basically really close to same power in the end? So my initial post about the regens I tested being very close in power still stands.

2. Already did. Several times. Hell, did it in my very previous post before this one. Sorry if I don't write that post out for every person I respond to when I'm actually addressing something else specifically. Should I put it in my signature

Happy? Now respond to that because your nitpicking is actually annoying me and it gets us nowhere.

Psychological projection.

Sigh, again, you replied to the regen post. Don't reply if you are afraid to get challenged on what you say in your replies.

That post you link still tries to discuss healing potency as the issue, so I can't really take you seriously.

Nerf AST healing potency? Accomplishes nothing since AST still has cards and it pretty much just throws the burden on your co-healer since they can't tune the fights based on AST's weaker healing than SCH/WHM because then the fights would be too easy to heal and potentially cause solo healing issues.

Buff WHM healing potency? Accomplishes nothing since they aren't lacking in healing in the first place and potential problem of solo healing which kicks out both SCH and AST as a result.

Buff WHM utility? Yes.
Buff WHM healer DPS spells? Yes.
Nerf Balance to 10% (5% AoE). Yes, this could help, but it doesn't change much really. I think the better course would be to bring WHM utility up not bring AST utility down.

[Reilyn]

That is why I am saying it is nitpicking. Why does it matter? You've yet to explain why every 2 minutes a possible extension of HoTs that will likely just over heal is actually making AST vastly superior to WHM.

Going to shorten this for you:

My point was never "AST has vastly superior healing to WHM". I've never said that. You can't point to anywhere in my post where I did. Got it?

My point was AST actually has a better version of the Regen spell. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You're making the leaps and assumptions here. I never said "AST has vastly superior healing to WHM" anywhere in any of my posts. Stop pretending I did.



The majority of your post is getting into regen spell vs regen effect and goes back into the same linguistic nitpicking I just said I'm not going to deal with.

I'm just going to repeat myself; Diurnal sect aspected benefic is a better spell than regen. That's all I was getting at. That's all I said. I never said AST healing is vastly superior to WHM because I know it isn't.

That post you link still tries to discuss healing potency as the issue, so I can't really take you seriously.

Then you didn't read the post. I discussed the exact opposite.

More than half of it was referring to the fact that healing output wasn't the main issue that benched AST in 3.0. I ended the post asserting that even if AST's healing potencies were reverted to what they were in 3.0 they would still put WHM on the bench because of a functional card system that buffed raid dps.

You didn't read my post at all, so stop the dismissive crap. If you actually read my post, you'd find you're repeating the very same points i was implying by these statements:

If AST's card system was as good as it is now back in Gordias with lower healing potencies, I would put money on WHM warming the bench.

While they're at it, WHM may need some sort of party dps buff, because they've been facing the problem of being benched for years because their AOE, and powerhealing tends to be overkill outside of the odd solo-healer strats for something on farm.

So congrats, we agree. You just chose not to read the post that shows we do despite the fact we see the same problems because you read like 2 sentences before your 'holier-than-thou' attitude kicked in.

[Miste]

I'm just going to repeat myself; Diurnal sect aspected benefic is a better spell than regen. That's all I was getting at. That's all I said. I never said AST healing is vastly superior to WHM because I know it isn't.

So after all this you basically had no point and your reply to me didn't actually mean anything?

Okay...at least we cleared that up.

It isn't really a better spell. It's basically the same spell because like I said...one more fry than the person behind you means literally nothing especially since you got an extra pickle on your burger than them anyway. (Medica II being the pickle since it ticks higher)

I do apologize if I made "assumptions", but I assumed you had a point you were trying to make since you were so stuck on Asp. Benefic being better.

In general when you try to correct someone you have a point to make not just...aimlessly trying to correct something they weren't even talking about. I mean you just said you know their healing is about the same so.....uh did you really argue all that just to try to prove me wrong about my simple post comparing the regens with in-game tests?

I'm baffled at this point.

can you be an adult and stop the dismissive crap

I have been cordial with you until you brought in the "save face" thing. So calling me the non-adult is kind of ironic. Hmm seems you edited this out...and added

you read like 2 sentences before your 'holier-than-thou' attitude kicked in.

I don't have that attitude. Did you actually look at your response to me after I said you were nitpicking? Any time you gave me passive aggressive all I did was bat it back to you in kind. If you don't want that kind of thing back at you maybe you shouldn't throw it in the first place.

I've only responded to you how you have treated me.

Also I never dismissed what you said I read it all the problem is you said this:

So no, AST healing potencies don't need to be as high as they are relative to the other healers.

This is why I said you are still talking about healing potency. ^ this is healing potency is it not? I mean I can't just pull this quote out of the air. That's why I said you are still talking about healing potency because its right there in black and white. You still mentioned it. I mean if that is your opinion sure fine, but anyone who raids savage knows healing potency is not the issue if you want WHM to be as good as AST.