MNK Feedback (long)

[PangTong]

I've been playing XIV for about 2 years now and for that whole time, I've mained MNK. I enjoy the playstyle, aesthetic and core design of the job. However I feel that it has some design problems, which were not addressed and in some cases exacerbated by the changes in Stormblood.

I believe MNK's core flaws are:
- Riddle of Fire disrupts the natural rhythm of the job's rotation
- Too many highly situational abilities
- Chakras aren't interesting, and are restrictive
- Very little to their rotation once you've mastered the basics.

I'll go into each point in more detail.

Firstly, Riddle of Fire. The buff feels strong, but because it comes with the reduction to weaponskill speed, it is very jarring to use, both when it activates and when it ends. Playing MNK for 2 years, I have become accustomed to a natural "cadence" in MNK's combos. The next correct action comes naturally, and I can hit it without looking at my bars because the recast time of the combos has a set rhythm. Riddle of Fire messes with this. Suddenly my actions come half a second later than I expect, which means if I continue to try and flow with the rhythm of the job, I'll hit my skills too early and they won't go off. I have done this many, many times so far. It forces me to pay special attention to my combos during Riddle of Fire, which is bothersome, since most of the time I need to be focusing on the boss mechanics.

MNK is a job which is founded on the idea of speedy, smooth combos. Having a skill which disrupts this feels antithetical to the job's premise, and doesn't feel good to use even though it is powerful. My advice is this: Remove the skill speed reduction from Riddle of Fire, and nerf its damage buff to 10-15% to compensate. Because this would make the action boring, it should instead be given an additional effect. I believe something like "Reduces Forbidden Chakra cost to 3 chakras" would be suitable. This would mean that MNKs could decide whether it's better to use stored chakras immediately, or save them for Riddle of Fire where they are worth more. And it would not disrupt the job's rhythm and flow.

Onto the next point: Too many situational abilities.
The abilities I'm referring to in this case are Tornado Kick, Riddle of Earth, Fists of Earth, Fists of Wind, Tackle Mastery, One Ilm Punch, and Arm of the Destroyer. I'll go over each ability one by one.

Tornado Kick is a cool-looking ability, but due to consuming Greased Lightning 3, it's never really worth using except if you're about to unavoidably lose Greased Lightning. However these situations are difficult to predict, and with the addition of Riddle of Earth, it's even harder to decide whether Greased Lightning can be saved, or if it should be purged. The end result is that I almost never use this ability.

My recommendation is to create some kind of circumstance where using Tornado Kick does not consume Greased Lightning. For example, it could consume Riddle of Fire instead, if Riddle of Fire is active. This would allow it to function similarly to SMN's Deathflare. You use it right at the end of a big buff for a little extra boost and a cool feeling to ending your buff. This would also make the MNK rotation slightly more involved and interesting. Tornado Kick could also continue to consume Greased Lightning 3 when used outside the Riddle of Fire effect, so it would retain its purpose of allowing the MNK to dump their stacks if they know they will lose them.

Riddle of Earth is another ability that was added to help MNK maintain Greased Lightning during downtime. However it has the problem of being triggered only by damage. During times where there is no target to hit and keep Greased Lightning going, there is not always incoming damage to trigger this effect. An example is during Susano's first phase transition. Even if you use Riddle of Earth, Greased Lightning will expire by the time he swings the sword.

Another problem is that Greased Lightning does not always have a consistent remaining duration. For example, a boss might go untargetable, and use an attack 12s later. If a MNK had just refreshed Greased Lightning and thus had its full 16s duration, using Riddle of Earth here would allow them to save Greased Lightning. However, if they were unable to execute a Couerl Form attack before the boss became untargetable, Greased Lightning does not refresh, and so they will only have 8-10s remaining on its effect. This means that Riddle of Earth would not save Greased Lightning in this circumstance. This makes Riddle of Earth an extremely finnicky ability that will only sometimes save Greased Lightning. On top of this, using it means you have to manually switch back to Fists of Fire afterwards, which is a pain.

My advice: Change Riddle of Earth so that instead of being triggered by damage and refreshing Greased Lightning, it instead immediately causes Greased Lightning to stop ticking down for 15-20s. Remember in A12 how your buffs pause during Stasis? This would be like that, except only for Greased Lightning. You could still build and refresh GL stacks while in this state, the timer would just not tick down.

Next, Fists of Earth, Fists of Wind, and Tackle Mastery. The problem with Fists of Earth and Wind is that there is not a compelling enough reason to be in these stances when Fists of Fire exists. In almost all circumstances, MNKs will prefer a damage buff over a defense or speed boost. This means you end up in Fists of Fire 99% of the time, only switching to Fists of Earth when using Riddle of Earth. I still haven't found a good use for Fists of Wind, except for maybe running through towns a bit quicker.

Tackle Mastery does not solve this at all, and probably ranks as one of the most pointless abilities in the game. Earth Tackle is not only weaker and shorter range than Fire Tackle, but it also knocks enemies back, which is something that I can NEVER imagine wanting to do as a MNK. Wind Tackle is more useful, but ultimately Fire Tackle does more damage overall due to the stance's 5% damage buff. There is maybe a very rare circumstance where Wind Tackle's second tackle would be useful, but I can't think of one.

My advice: Equalize the damage across all 3 Fists stances, and then give a new effect to Fists of Fire. For example, it could extend the duration of the MNK's forms, or it could make it so missing positionals is only a 20 potency loss instead of 40, or it could extend the range of MNK's attacks by 1-2y. The choice of which stance to be in should be compelling. As part of this, Earth Tackle should also be improved, and Fire Tackle should have a bonus effect that isn't simply "more damage".

Moving on to One Ilm Punch. In Stormblood it was changed to be a stun that ignores stun resistance. Obviously this doesn't mean you can stun bosses, but if you have an enemy that has built up resistance due to being repeatedly stunned, you can still stun it with One Ilm Punch. This is a reasonably interesting idea, but it is still far too situational. Enemies which need to be stunned are rare, and when they do occur, you would not want to rely on One Ilm Punch to do so. It is instead better to just avoid building the enemy's stun resistance, then use a conventional stun when the time is right. Another problem is that One Ilm Punch requires Raptor form to use, which a MNK will feasibly only be in 33% of the time. Even if a situation arises where One Ilm Punch would be useful, the MNK would also have to be lucky enough to be in Raptor form at the exact moment it is required. Overall, I feel this change was a misfire.

My advice: Change the effect of One Ilm Punch. If it instead did something like grant a chakra, it could potentially see use as part of a MNK's rotation in certain circumstances (particularly if it was done in conjunction with my earlier suggestion of making Riddle of Fire cause Forbidden Chakra to cost less chakra).

Lastly, Arm of the Destroyer. There isn't much to say here. It requires a large number of enemies to be a DPS gain over using Bootshine and has a high TP cost considering the strength of its effect. Its Opo-Opo bonus effect also suffers from the same problem as the new One Ilm Punch - you have to be lucky enough to be in the right form when you need the effect. My advice would be to change its Opo-Opo bonus so it reduces its TP cost and/or increases its potency.


Moving on to my next point: Chakras aren't interesting and are restrictive.
In Heavensward, chakras were a mechanic that was added so MNKs had something to do when they were away from the target, which allowed them to get a bit of extra damage even when they couldn't hit anything. This was fine, and served its purpose. In Stormblood, chakras now build as the MNK fights, having a chance to proc off critical weaponskills. This is a fairly interesting idea, except I feel it has a flaw: Chakras are not an interesting resource.

The only thing you can really spend chakras on is The Forbidden Chakra. There is Purification, but it is highly situational, particularly since MNK does not really have TP issues anymore. This means that although you're bringing in chakras naturally, the only thing you are spending them on is a free damage oGCD ability. MNK already has several abilities like this, the only difference with Forbidden Chakra is its random nature. It does not really add any complexity or depth to MNK's rotation.

Chakras are also somewhat restrictive. By this I mean that all abilities which spend chakra require 5 chakras, but 5 is also the maximum number of chakras you can hold. This means that if you reach 5 chakras and do not spend them IMMEDIATELY, you are potentially wasting future chakra procs (particularly from Brotherhood, which generates chakras very quickly). This creates a stressful situation where you are constantly on the watch for a 5th chakra proc, so that you can use it without any delay. Perhaps this is intentional, but I feel it does not add much.

My advice: Allow MNK to store up to 7 chakra. Not only does this fit more with the lore of MNK, it also gives them a slight chakra "buffer", allowing them to hold a chakra-spending ability in reserve for a short time, without wasting additional chakra procs. If the change was also made that caused Riddle of Fire to reduce the cost of Forbidden Chakra, this would also serve to make chakras a more interesting resource, as MNKs would now have to think about whether to spend chakras immediately or save them for Riddle of Fire where they are worth more.


My last point deals with the complexity of MNK's rotation. The challenging aspect of MNK is intended (I think) to come from its many positionals, and its unusual "freeform" combo system. This takes some time to wrap your head around when you first start playing MNK, but after a while it becomes embedded in muscle memory. Picking the next ability to use and hitting its positional no longer requires thought, it is an automatic response. Yet MNK's rotation has very little depth outside of this system. Besides things to help manage downtime such as Form Shift and Riddle of Earth, MNK's other actions consist almost exclusively of "free damage" oGCD abilities. There is very little thought in using these skills, most of the time you simply hit them as they come off cooldown. With the removal of Touch of Death, MNK now has even less to keep track of. Perhaps this is intentional and MNK is currently deemed sufficiently complex by the dev team, but I can't help but wish like there was just a little more to do when not building or saving Greased Lightning. I feel like the changes I've suggested would help.


That concludes my feedback. I post this here only in the hope that my thoughts are considered as part of a larger whole of MNK feedback and eventually relayed in some way to the dev team, hopefully leading to positive changes, even if they aren't the ones I've suggested. Thanks to anyone who read this far.

[silentwindfr]

you can bypass the 1000 character limit by eddit your first post ^^.

nice resume of the feeling of the monk for very long, we debating about this for... soo long, and SB wasn't the life saver we did expect, we are barely did become interesting. the change of sb didn't offer any new evolution. the monk lack a clear role, the monk like i have said in another thread, is not the best at anything anymore.

the rework of the combat system was poorly done, because the monk was technically the top dps, it was not means to receive the same treatment that other jobs did get, sadly with the add of the sam and the fact that the monk is barely more powerfull than a nin... we did end into the position of the most unwanted jobs in raid. honestly everyone do better than us in everything we do.

and no utility nor balance patch will change this, they did create this situation, they need to accept that the monk is clearly needing a rework.
and sadly we can't expect this to be done before the 4.2 or 4.3, because they lack the manpower and fund for do this before. they have a lot to do too... at the worst, we can expect to receive the attention needed for the next expansion, it's why it's a heartbreaking situation that is painfull for old monk player.

[PangTong]

you can bypass the 1000 character limit by eddit your first post ^^.

I'll do that then. Thank you.

My concern is not so much that MNK lacks a place in groups or lacks power. As long as there are people who want to play MNK, there will be MNKs, and groups which use them. I feel instead that the class is not as fun and well-designed as it could be. On jobs such as SAM and RDM, there are very few "useless" abilities. Everything they have is useful in some way, and "fits" into the job's playstyle somehow, and the jobs themselves have more things to consider than simply executing their combos in the correct order, or hitting their positionals. MNK lacks this, I feel.

They are suffering from what I believe is overdesign. Many changes and additions have accumulated over the years, without the job being examined as a whole, and how each part of it works to form a cohesive playstyle. Instead they have a core framework, and then instead of building on, expanding and deepening that framework, they just have various bits and pieces tacked on.

[silentwindfr]

the trouble i did pointed, will lead to a decrease of our community, and that directly tie to what you did pointed.
yes the monk do have a lot of useless or counter intuitive skill, yes the monk combo is lacking... yes the monk chakra system feel badly implemented.

but all of this is directly tie to the fact that we don't have a role, nor a clear identity. cause and effect...
the cause is the lack of clear vision of the dev on what make of the monk, leading ot the effect that he have no role, nor particularity that it shine into, leading to not be wanted in group, what in a mmoprg is equal to death to a jobs.

we can argue that the monk have a decent dps and are second, but sadly it's not enough for cover all the trouble, it only show that it's possible to make a bad design work in terms of balance, but ignore the fun factor, the challenge or any sense of evolution that the jobs was recquire.

when we see the combat system rework we notice that the monk didn't receive a lot from it... because he was top dps at this time, or because he was getting new buff that was covering what we did loose, but at the same time the other jobs did evolve, the SB expansion did bring new tool, what the monk didn't receive... we have an expansion that did serve to cover what we did loose from the combat system rework or make bad design try to work, instead to say:
"ok this skill are bad, we need to rework them from the ground, we need to have a clear vision of what we want for the monk"
no it was "how make this skill work when they are clearly bad from the start"

why the combo system wasn't touched for 4 years... and 2 expansion and more of 10 major patch! what the hell... how is possible that the monk is played the same since the V2... nothing added did change the core mechanic, nor did make them better. nothing... it's like they are scared to work on the monk, scared to make a jobs that will recquire more training for be well used.
they are soo much focus on getting bad player catch with good player for make more people get into savage... instead to notice that it's more a core trouble of FF14, we do progress by mostly doing group at 4 and suddenly we are throw in hard content at 8... it's not the same, we can't expect people to become good at raid when they only do dungeon or fate for progress.

we did ask for age for a content at 4 that will be challenging that will serve as training for raiding, because actually raiding community is getting smaller and smaller.

a lot of thig did affect how the monk did not evolve. raiding community that did wanted utility over balance, speedrunning that did wanted fast completion over challenge... and such... plus the lack of other jobs depending of our only true utility. because mantra is.... not needed, brotherhood is... barely passable... monk utility are bad by design. leading us to be bad by design too... instead to make us a strong contender to the same role than sam, what we was before... they did push us into a pitfall without anything for saving grace.

the jobs lack fun factor, challenge and evolution. and i do play monk since the V1... i'm sure a lot of other veteran monk have the same feeling than me.. we are working in term of balance but we are soo messy in terms of gameplay, challenge and fun factor that it almost painfull to play.

if a jobs is not appealing... it will die, if a jobs don't have anything in what it shine... it will die.

monk are slowly dying... it did begin in the end of HW and SB didn't solve anything, most of the add of SB are bad by design... because they are focus on making useless skill into usefull one... when from the start it was impossible.

[Xau]

personally i wish what they make elixir field use chakra stacks, you know, currently, monk of all the melees has the worst aoe since is mostly do 1 target attacks and then end up whit rock breaker(so mobs tends to die later because a monk is in there), all the other melees has to some degree a spamable aoe, samurai on aoe situations is half of the time aoeing because needs to refresh buffs anyway, but theirs are still spamable at the cost of no buffs, one way to fix this is make elixir field be reliant on chakra stacks, something like the samurai kenki aoe, where you can spam it at the cost of the job resources(in this case chakra stacks), not gonna say how many chakra stacks they should cost or the potency should have, but i tink this could help whit the problems monk has at the time to do aoes as well to give more deep on what spend the chakra stacks

[Gravton]

I've said it before but they need to switch monk damage to piercing. Slashing debuff helps 5 jobs, Piercing helps 4 (rdm I guess), blunt helps mnk and mele casters I guess. At least if mnk had piercing they would be part of the conversation. "Do we run nin/sam or drg/mnk?" Mnk should be the Sam of piercing comps. At the very least, do something to boost caster comps.

[Lastelli]

I still haven't unlocked RoF on mnk so I don't know how it will feel but for now I don't see the problem with it. mch and brd also have skills that change their gcd and make it faster and I don't have any problem with it. For mnk, I guess the rationale behind rof is mnk trying to put more power into their fists so they have to "charge" and slow down to muster their strenght. I like the idea and it makes double weaving easier. It probably just needs some time to get used to it.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

For mnk, I guess the rationale behind rof is mnk trying to put more power into their fists so they have to "charge" and slow down to muster their strenght. I like the idea and it makes double weaving easier. It probably just needs some time to get used to it.

It's funny, because this was exactly how I tried to see it at first. But no, RoF really does feel like a slow debuff. Maybe I'd feel different if the hits in RoF had more weight to them, or a heavier SFX, but they feel exactly the same. It feels like you're just going extremely slow. Even when it's over, you feel this kind of sluggishness to your rotation for a few seconds afterwards.

Monks have never felt this slow, ever, now that I think of it. They've always had at least GL1 with them ever since they got Snap Punch.

[TheRedMage]

Firstly, Riddle of Fire. The buff feels strong, but because it comes with the reduction to weaponskill speed, it is very jarring to use, both when it activates and when it ends. Playing MNK for 2 years, I have become accustomed to a natural "cadence" in MNK's combos. The next correct action comes naturally, and I can hit it without looking at my bars because the recast time of the combos has a set rhythm. Riddle of Fire messes with this. Suddenly my actions come half a second later than I expect, which means if I continue to try and flow with the rhythm of the job, I'll hit my skills too early and they won't go off. I have done this many, many times so far. It forces me to pay special attention to my combos during Riddle of Fire, which is bothersome, since most of the time I need to be focusing on the boss mechanics.

This, so much this. This is the reason I absolutely loathe RoF.
"But it's only a half second difference", yes and as a fighting game player I can tell you that even changing the timing by 1 frame (16ms) is enough to throw you off when you're used to something. So imagine what a difference in 30 frames would do.

And I don't care what YoshiP says, playing in Savage won't change this.

[silentwindfr]

i wonder if the: wait to see in savage if it feel good or not is not a way to say: "we don't have the manpower nor the time to work on you for now"
i don't see how the savage, that rarely more of 8% of the community do, will change anything to the 92% left.

i will have prefer if they did come out and simply say: "ok we did mess up with the monk, sadly for now we can't do much, then be patient we gonna work on it asap" i will have prefer this than anything that was said soo far.