How can you continue to ignore monk completely?

[Morzy]

Why would you ever bring a Samurai if it was even second in dps compared to other classes that bring some sort of utility

Yup. Welcome to the world of Monk back in HW when a lot of raids went with DRG/NIN because they needed the utility and Monk had barely any raid utility in comparison.

I have no problem with SAM, in fact I would be delighted if they didn't kill monks playstyle and SAM and Monk could compete for that "high damage no utility" spot in a raid. I mean heck, the way I see it is you got BRD/MCH, you got BLM/SMN, you got DRG/NIN. So WHY when they give us Monk/SAM they ruin Monk. I wouldn't even care if Monk was second by a little, as long as they both hold the same position in a raid, just freaking make it fun again.

I'm glad you like SAM. I'm glad you have that "selfish DPS" persona. Feels nice to be independent, yeah? Great for solo play when you don't have your DPS in abilities that buff others. I remember it well and believe me I'll miss it. You're gonna get a lot of hate for this, so you may as well get use to it. Just be the best you can until it's your DPS that is the utility they need. I'll likely try SAM myself, but it will be a sad departure from Monk.

[Enjuden]

snip

I'm well aware where monk was in Heavensward, And it sucked, since that was my best melee at the time, but people wanted to meme out monk because DRK was part of the tank meta. I however don't understand how monk was ruined, when monk is..well, it didn't change. At all in playstyle (aside from touch of death). I just think it didn't receive enough to make it interesting, or if we go by the paladin route, lost nothing while gaining buttons. In fact, if Brotherhood was changed in any one way for the better, they'd have that Monk/SAM thing you want, which, again, why would you ever bring samurai when monk is sam+1 then?

Granted I didn't get to 60 yet, so I will see what happens, but the data I have seen has showed that monk is barely behind samurai, with brotherhood almost pushing them over in 8 man content, but not quite. They're really close right now. And believe me, I've seen the hate and received it passive aggressively all of stormblood so far. I believe it's been exaggerated to the point of being ludicrous, if we go by data that is relevant, not 'lel I pad my numbers with astrologian and eating aoes'.

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

[Morzy]

I however don't understand how monk was ruined, when monk is..well, it didn't change. At all.

This is part of our problem. It's easy to just look at the DPS numbers and say monk is in a decent place, it really is. But DPS isn't really the problem. These changes hit the people that have played monk for years. Monk was so streamlined in 3.x, it was hard to think that you could screw it up like this.

Lets see. I probably stopped playing for pretty much good at around February. I might've got on a few times during my college semesters between then and SB release but most of the time I went with SCH for queues because well DPS queues sucked and I didn't have time so thank god my 2nd fav class is a healer. Anyway. A good ~4 months without playing monk and I decide that at a week before SB release, I wanted to test my muscle memory with my Monk rotation... And so I did, and it was near perfect, I remembered everything, even the stuff I missed like Fracture.

With the SB abilities.. I mean I don't have brotherhood but what difference will that make, eh? The job is just. I only gained two abilities and a few traits and I can't even replicate the rotation I did a week before SB because it doesn't exist anymore. I can't improvise and whats worse is our "best buff" slows us down which throws me off every darn time. This isn't just a simple "add a few abilities to the existing rotation", no it's freaking gone.


edit1: Maybe I was a bit dramatic at the end there, but that's what it feels like.
edit2: Also I noticed how you responded and it forced me to reflect on my post. I wasn't at all being snarky with the whole "welcome to the world of Monk back in HW". I genuinely meant it... Lol.

[silentwindfr]

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

actually, most of us don't talk of the dps...

what we point out is the lack of evolution that the jobs did receive in the past 4 years, after 2 expansion, the jobs is still played like in ARR, the only difference is the loose of 2 dot.
what i feel was needed for allows the developement of the combo system, what i was expecting with sb... but in the end, we didn't get any of it...

the trouble with the design of monk is tie to 2 trouble actually:
1) the fact that is tailored for get a maximum of dps from auto attack (about 28-30% of our damage is from auto attack) because riddle of fire affect greatly the damage of the auto attack, you get a +75% damage for auto attack, what no other jobs get

2) to be a rogue, it's a freaking rogue... and a bad one at that.
the position of the monk only scream this, i'm a freaking rogue that attack with fist and kick and oversized fist weapon. (most of the time, i'm still waiting to have simple glove of battle... glove that replace our armor glove and that are our weapon... god is not that complicate)

what is defining the monk are two mechanic extremely important for our jobs:
1) the free form combo, allowing use to switch any skill of the same form for create our own combo
2) the grease lightning. more time spend to continue the combo allows us to hit harder and faster, getting more momentum as we fight longer

sadly the first didn't receive any change for 2 expansion and more of 10 major patch. and the second is a shackle that limitate what they can do... yes the idea behind grease lightning is interesting, but instead to add damage, it will have been better to simply add speed... and get trait and fist of fire adding the damage. it will have make the monk getting stronger because his attack not get more powerfull... but arrive faster as the time pass.

our damage must'nt be tie to a buff we must maintain... it don't make sense we are monk, a powerhouse, we are the fist of the destroyer... we are the destroyer power itself.

we have a lot of useless or barely usefull skill:
- fist of earth
- fist of wind
- arm of the destroyer
- one ilm punch

this four bad design choice that did lead them to add the riddle for justify the existance of bad design skill that are relic of the V1.

fist of fire, wind and earth in the V1 was adding elemental damage to our attack, allowing us to adapt ourself to the enemy weakness. (what was too the reason we was str/int based... *sighs*). the trouble is the weakness elemental was scraped out... and instead to take them out, they have give them... strange buff.

- fist of fire, like any decent monk know it is the main buff we will be on... all the time, since it increase our dps
- fist of earth, is a survival stance, a rest of the offtank role we had in the V1 (yes monk had even skill of enmity) can be usefull for like said before we barely use it... only for reduce the damage incoming... before be changed back into fist of fire.
- fist of wind, the most useless skill we do possess, it increase our run speed, but it's not even 10% (what the ninja do have...as trait... ) meaning it have barely any use as mobility buff...

in end we did get riddle for give this 3 skill more reason to exist... instead to work on them for make them better skill that are deserving to be into our toolkit.

an example for the fist of earth, while it is active, we can ignore position and the enemy is always considered like in the best position, while reducing our damage taken. it will have make it a solo stance or even a stance used for situation where is not possible to get the position and then cover for the loose of 5% of damage.
or make the fist of earth like the paladin skill 70, allowing the monk to absorb a part of the damage of the attack touching him... while charging chakra for each attack. it will have been a very strong skill for situation where we need a survival skill.

and i'm sure is possible to give more idea about what to do of this skill...
the trouble is the monk instead to receive this at the combat system rework... didn't get anything outside loose skill... what was shocking... since the monk was really needing a rework.

sadly, it seems the dev for the monk have no clear vision about what do with it.
no idea on how enhance the combo system, what was the simplest to do while combining chakra and gl with it... no...

even in hw we did receive skill that had a niche... tornado kick, it's a perfect example of what is wrong with the monk. our goal as monk is to maintain the GL buff, and here we get a skill that consume it... the idea behind is for allows the monk to consume the charge when he can't maintain it.
the trouble is this skill is a melee skill, why not make it a ranged skill, what will have broad his utility and make it more worth...

and sadly we can go on for age about all the trouble with the monk evolution...

and none of this is link to the dps... no one here is complaining about the dps.. we are complaining about the freaking 4 years of non evolution of our main tool. the freaking 4 years of monk being left out any serious work and more important about the clear disconnection between the monk playerbase and the dev team...

it's like they don't understand us... it's like they don't really understand our trouble our complain our need. we didn't need any utility... brotherhood was unneeded... we was needing a clear advantage to be bring to a raid, like the sam have, the sam have huge dps that is why people bring him.

and that what we was lacking, we was lacking a cutting edge dps for make it the other think... ok the monk don't bring buff, but if played well it will give us an advantage by bringing a tons of damage.
what anger the monk, is they did give us a broken utility skill, while creating a jobs that fit what we was wanting to be.
because the monk is the only blunt damage user, meaning none of our buff will be usefull for the group, i'm ready to throws out mantra and brotherhood if it means get a very strong dps that will make us have a place in raid. because soo far, we did loose our place... it's better to bring a sam with a nin that bring a monk with anything else.

do i want a nerf of the sam? no, i want a rework of the monk, no savage will make any of the skill they did added shine, nor make the monk more appealing... savage is for less of 8% of the community and must'nt be what is looked for decide if a jobs need to evolve!

because this 8% of the community is too generally the best of the best, then even if the jobs is hard to play, or too fast, they will master it!

do i want the monk to be hard to master? yes! god yes! i don't care if it means we get something more complex in terms of combo, if it means that at the end if i master it, i'm rewarded. i don't need a streamlined monk that even a children of 12 years can master.

the monk lack fun factor, lack evolution and lack challenge, until they understand this... the monk will be a dying jobs. now more than ever.. they need to take the time to talk with us, to understand our concern, to even do a poll about what we really want. for god sake... they to reconnect with us!

[Morzy]

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

Ok you just lost my respect...