How can you continue to ignore monk completely?

[Morzy]

I however don't understand how monk was ruined, when monk is..well, it didn't change. At all.

This is part of our problem. It's easy to just look at the DPS numbers and say monk is in a decent place, it really is. But DPS isn't really the problem. These changes hit the people that have played monk for years. Monk was so streamlined in 3.x, it was hard to think that you could screw it up like this.

Lets see. I probably stopped playing for pretty much good at around February. I might've got on a few times during my college semesters between then and SB release but most of the time I went with SCH for queues because well DPS queues sucked and I didn't have time so thank god my 2nd fav class is a healer. Anyway. A good ~4 months without playing monk and I decide that at a week before SB release, I wanted to test my muscle memory with my Monk rotation... And so I did, and it was near perfect, I remembered everything, even the stuff I missed like Fracture.

With the SB abilities.. I mean I don't have brotherhood but what difference will that make, eh? The job is just. I only gained two abilities and a few traits and I can't even replicate the rotation I did a week before SB because it doesn't exist anymore. I can't improvise and whats worse is our "best buff" slows us down which throws me off every darn time. This isn't just a simple "add a few abilities to the existing rotation", no it's freaking gone.


edit1: Maybe I was a bit dramatic at the end there, but that's what it feels like.
edit2: Also I noticed how you responded and it forced me to reflect on my post. I wasn't at all being snarky with the whole "welcome to the world of Monk back in HW". I genuinely meant it... Lol.

[silentwindfr]

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

actually, most of us don't talk of the dps...

what we point out is the lack of evolution that the jobs did receive in the past 4 years, after 2 expansion, the jobs is still played like in ARR, the only difference is the loose of 2 dot.
what i feel was needed for allows the developement of the combo system, what i was expecting with sb... but in the end, we didn't get any of it...

the trouble with the design of monk is tie to 2 trouble actually:
1) the fact that is tailored for get a maximum of dps from auto attack (about 28-30% of our damage is from auto attack) because riddle of fire affect greatly the damage of the auto attack, you get a +75% damage for auto attack, what no other jobs get

2) to be a rogue, it's a freaking rogue... and a bad one at that.
the position of the monk only scream this, i'm a freaking rogue that attack with fist and kick and oversized fist weapon. (most of the time, i'm still waiting to have simple glove of battle... glove that replace our armor glove and that are our weapon... god is not that complicate)

what is defining the monk are two mechanic extremely important for our jobs:
1) the free form combo, allowing use to switch any skill of the same form for create our own combo
2) the grease lightning. more time spend to continue the combo allows us to hit harder and faster, getting more momentum as we fight longer

sadly the first didn't receive any change for 2 expansion and more of 10 major patch. and the second is a shackle that limitate what they can do... yes the idea behind grease lightning is interesting, but instead to add damage, it will have been better to simply add speed... and get trait and fist of fire adding the damage. it will have make the monk getting stronger because his attack not get more powerfull... but arrive faster as the time pass.

our damage must'nt be tie to a buff we must maintain... it don't make sense we are monk, a powerhouse, we are the fist of the destroyer... we are the destroyer power itself.

we have a lot of useless or barely usefull skill:
- fist of earth
- fist of wind
- arm of the destroyer
- one ilm punch

this four bad design choice that did lead them to add the riddle for justify the existance of bad design skill that are relic of the V1.

fist of fire, wind and earth in the V1 was adding elemental damage to our attack, allowing us to adapt ourself to the enemy weakness. (what was too the reason we was str/int based... *sighs*). the trouble is the weakness elemental was scraped out... and instead to take them out, they have give them... strange buff.

- fist of fire, like any decent monk know it is the main buff we will be on... all the time, since it increase our dps
- fist of earth, is a survival stance, a rest of the offtank role we had in the V1 (yes monk had even skill of enmity) can be usefull for like said before we barely use it... only for reduce the damage incoming... before be changed back into fist of fire.
- fist of wind, the most useless skill we do possess, it increase our run speed, but it's not even 10% (what the ninja do have...as trait... ) meaning it have barely any use as mobility buff...

in end we did get riddle for give this 3 skill more reason to exist... instead to work on them for make them better skill that are deserving to be into our toolkit.

an example for the fist of earth, while it is active, we can ignore position and the enemy is always considered like in the best position, while reducing our damage taken. it will have make it a solo stance or even a stance used for situation where is not possible to get the position and then cover for the loose of 5% of damage.
or make the fist of earth like the paladin skill 70, allowing the monk to absorb a part of the damage of the attack touching him... while charging chakra for each attack. it will have been a very strong skill for situation where we need a survival skill.

and i'm sure is possible to give more idea about what to do of this skill...
the trouble is the monk instead to receive this at the combat system rework... didn't get anything outside loose skill... what was shocking... since the monk was really needing a rework.

sadly, it seems the dev for the monk have no clear vision about what do with it.
no idea on how enhance the combo system, what was the simplest to do while combining chakra and gl with it... no...

even in hw we did receive skill that had a niche... tornado kick, it's a perfect example of what is wrong with the monk. our goal as monk is to maintain the GL buff, and here we get a skill that consume it... the idea behind is for allows the monk to consume the charge when he can't maintain it.
the trouble is this skill is a melee skill, why not make it a ranged skill, what will have broad his utility and make it more worth...

and sadly we can go on for age about all the trouble with the monk evolution...

and none of this is link to the dps... no one here is complaining about the dps.. we are complaining about the freaking 4 years of non evolution of our main tool. the freaking 4 years of monk being left out any serious work and more important about the clear disconnection between the monk playerbase and the dev team...

it's like they don't understand us... it's like they don't really understand our trouble our complain our need. we didn't need any utility... brotherhood was unneeded... we was needing a clear advantage to be bring to a raid, like the sam have, the sam have huge dps that is why people bring him.

and that what we was lacking, we was lacking a cutting edge dps for make it the other think... ok the monk don't bring buff, but if played well it will give us an advantage by bringing a tons of damage.
what anger the monk, is they did give us a broken utility skill, while creating a jobs that fit what we was wanting to be.
because the monk is the only blunt damage user, meaning none of our buff will be usefull for the group, i'm ready to throws out mantra and brotherhood if it means get a very strong dps that will make us have a place in raid. because soo far, we did loose our place... it's better to bring a sam with a nin that bring a monk with anything else.

do i want a nerf of the sam? no, i want a rework of the monk, no savage will make any of the skill they did added shine, nor make the monk more appealing... savage is for less of 8% of the community and must'nt be what is looked for decide if a jobs need to evolve!

because this 8% of the community is too generally the best of the best, then even if the jobs is hard to play, or too fast, they will master it!

do i want the monk to be hard to master? yes! god yes! i don't care if it means we get something more complex in terms of combo, if it means that at the end if i master it, i'm rewarded. i don't need a streamlined monk that even a children of 12 years can master.

the monk lack fun factor, lack evolution and lack challenge, until they understand this... the monk will be a dying jobs. now more than ever.. they need to take the time to talk with us, to understand our concern, to even do a poll about what we really want. for god sake... they to reconnect with us!

[Morzy]

Fun is a thing, and definitely what should be changed on monk, imo. But when it comes to damage? You all need to calm down.

Ok you just lost my respect...

[LunaFaye]

to be honest it doesn't surprise me. With every new expansion, jobs are getting either hit with the extreme nerf bat, or buffed to the sky without adjusting other jobs or balancing them correctly. I can't count how many times I did have to switch my mains, and mostly always a week or two weeks before actual content that matters is released. First it was PLD, then it was Astro, BRD now with SB I don't even know were to begin listing the problems that occurred throughout many of the jobs in general.

While I do like the expansion in general, I was very excited at the take of changing the whole combat system, even that gauge is a cute cosmetic addition, but one thing I wasn't very hyped about were the role skills. Now that they are released, I see that I wasn't very wrong with that, lots of the "uniqueness" of prior jobs have been stripped and their actions made role actions, some are so bad, that nobody would even take these roles since they don't do anything for them.

Not even 5 weeks into the expansion, we start nerfing cast times from pld as example, where was the warrior nerf the last 3 years as PLD was pretty much useless? I don't mind making adjustments, but nerfing classes and then re buffing them should all been happen during beta and not during expansions itself or 3 days before release of savage. And it's not just the pld so, anyways before I keep on my ramble, let me finish with this....

It doesn't come as an surprise to me, that MNK is being ignored, since their counterpart is the samurai and well we all know that the marketing department, did a pretty good job with hyping SAM and RDM up and that lead to a lot of sales, that without these new jobs probably wouldn't have happen. Good Business decision, sadly to say, it comes with a price, and that does effect the player base. Maybe not so much the new players, since all they know are the changes made in SB, but people that played much longer than that, don't find it much of enjoyment. Let's hope that can be changed into positive instead of making players have to switch their jobs. Just to find out that they get nerfed/buffed a month later, or find no "love" thrown their way lol.

[YISUG]

You find MNK boring and unrewarding...

Perhaps don't play it?.....Simple solutions to a simple problem.

player : i have a feedback about this thing

and then someone like you : no you are not allowed to give feedback just dont play it \ do it
my gods man these useless replies

[YitharV2]

Not even 5 weeks into the expansion, we start nerfing cast times from pld as example

Yeah, I'm personally of the opinion that we should not nerf unless it's truly necessary but it seems SE doesn't think so. I do feel for PLDs as it's sort of how we felt when they made stance dancing clunky for Warrior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8...utu.be&t=4m55s

And I also don't really like hopping onto FoTM but it seems that's what MMOs like to do, so I don't blame those who do switch. Samurai just feels like a better Monk in a few ways. The DPS disparity in personal DPS, that was what Monk should have had. The fact that it has really awesome AoE (I mean Monk's AoE is still decent). And the fact that with Samurai there's no worry about losing GL3 (and their weaponskill speed boost lasts a lot longer).

[Tigerlilley]

i feel yoshida and his team is too much focus on new player forgeting that some player are here, did support them for age and deserve an evolution of gameplay after soo long. I can't be the only monk main player that did feel soo much hurt by stormblood and the combat system revamp, where nothing was bring, nothing was solved, everything did stay the same... why?

This is absolutely correct and especially on the back of the recent documentary which emphasized how much Yoshi's team appreciated the fans that were with them from the beginning. At the end of 3.0 we were promised utility after an expansion of #DELETEMNK and we got a 5% physical only buff that doesn't effect us. Sure, it's meant to affect chakra stacks but this is 1) RNG 2) Useless in a mage heavy party 3) completely overwritten by another monk if you have one in the same team. Ninja trick attack 10% to the whole team. How is this comparable?

So then we got to the balance patch, surely after the countless threads on Reddit and the discussions here that Monk needs .... something, that everyone hates Riddle of Fire, in last nights Live Letter I thought, surely, surely they'll do something now. They asked for feedback, we gave it. Yoshi says "just stick with it". It's one more slap in the face after a long, long time of promising change and delivering nothing.

Another thing that's insulting by Yoshi's comments that the slow debuff/ RoF is there to "not stress players" is how stressful the monk opener is now. You're literally down to the last 2 - 3 seconds of GL before you reapply after the opener, meaning if someone pulls aggro accidentally, or something unexpected happens, bye stacks. You cannot recover when you are literally punching through sludge.

I understand everyone is excited by Samurai, I understand that Samurai is the marketing job for $$ in new players for Stormblood. If they want Samurai to be the top DPS now then fine, okay. But couldn't this have happened with out completely trashing monk?

[BucklesTrespen]

My only complaints with how Monk unfolded are:
-Why wasn't Fists of Fire turned into a trait like Ninja's Dripping Blades.
-Why do we still have Fists of Wind.
-Why didn't we get any new abilities, like a combo chain that guarantees a Chakra or something.
-Why do we have Steel Peek? It's such a random ability and hardly fits the Monk aesthetics. With the removal of the stun I'm shocked that we didn't get a new animation / skill name to replace this cling-on with.
-Why did we get Tackle Mastery? It's a complete joke. A 30 potency Fire Tackle isn't mastery, it's just a number buff. Earth Tackle - why do we knock a mob back and out of melee range when we just used a gap closer to get into melee with it? Wind Tackle / Riddle of Wind - Why do we get a 5 second window to Tackle again? Nothing dies in 5 seconds. What super niche situation was envisioned for this complete joke of a skill. The whole Tackle Mastery is a complete letdown.
-Why doesn't Riddle of Earth reset the GL timer on activation and again when hit. The value of this skill swings massively because we can have anywhere between 10 and 16 seconds left on GL at any given time (less when in RoF).
-Why was Tornado Kick left unchanged. This was our GL dump but now we have RoE - a skill that (sometimes) maintains GL in transitions so Tornado Kick, which already saw next to no use is now even less used.
-Why was Deep Meditation made a trait of 50% on a crit. Double rng for a core mechanic.

Actually I'm getting carried away. I must be more upset with Monk than I originally thought...

[silentwindfr]

...snips....

No! all your question are legitimate... when we look at the combat revamp that was done, we can't simply accept it without ask ourself...why?
i can add more why to your list:
- why didn't we get back simian strike back from the V1?
- why are we the only jobs that when mess up get punished? (gl stack lost is a heavy punishement and can happend easily)
- why are we the only jobs that don't have a ranged attack? (yes every jobs outside monk have a ranged attack, to add to the insult, the boss of the monk quest level 60 have a freaking ranged attack)
- why are we the only jobs that feel like out the place each time? (we don't get a clear role, even more now in SB, are we truely a dps? when we see that we do get a survival skill of tank i'm wondering)
- why we was left in this states after the combat revamp?
- why aren't we listened since we are technically the people that know the best the monk... since we play it a lot?
- why add utility to the monk when you add samurai that have no utility? (don't it will have been better to the monk to be the counter part of the sam, while making his damage resistance reduction apply for magic making the jobs be what the magical class need)

it's possible to continue... the trouble is, we don't have a clear discution with the dev team, it seems they get the feedback, but don't understand it... what is leading to that situation. i feel before do anything, they need to talk to us, to listen to us, since in the end...we will be the monk, we will be the one playing it. if it don't appeal us, it's pointless, if it feel bad for us to play it.... it's pointless.

i hope a community manager will pass this message to yoshida and his team, we are not appealing by the monk anymore, the jobs do his role, but is not fun. it's not appealing, it's not challenging, it's not evoluting anymore. we feel like the black sheep of the familly that don't deserve a decent treatment. like because we are top dps we don't need to be look at correctly... when it's not like this... if the other jobs evolve and we don't, you can't expect us to continue to stick to the job when every one evolve, change, get a feeling of progression.

please tell them we want to talk, we need to talk to have a clear discution between them and us. we feel disconnected, we feel abandonned, we feel left out. i'm not english then i can't even express correctly what i feel. exept i'm heartbroken to see the monk in this sorry states. i know that change can't be made in one week or 1 month... i'm not stupid i know it will take time, but at least... communicate with us, we are the community that can endure if you talk to us, if you show that you understand what we try desperatly to say to you.

monk need a serious rework... is not a balance patch, it's really a rework that it's needed... the rework we was deserving to receive with SB. and i doubt any monk will wait until the next expansion for see any change, you did reach a critical breaking point. after what was the situation of the end of hw.... we didn't get out of it, it's even worst... monk don't bring anything worth that justify his presence in group. he don't have a role definite, he don't have a clear identity anymore. it's time to work with us... than against us. please, pretty please.... don't leave u anymore in this mess.

You find MNK boring and unrewarding...

Perhaps don't play it?.....Simple solutions to a simple problem.

i'm one of the people that did stick to monk for age and i'm not the only one in this case, when people like us feel that something is really wrong, not because the class did change, no because the class didn't change... it's extremely bad. say to that sort of people if you don't like don't play it... will only have one effect, less and less and less monk, until, it's too late and the jobs is not played anymore.

our population is slowly reducing with every patch now, to the point that it's not even a bother to say we don't need monk, that monk can be deleted... that it's the point we are.
we don't ask to be the top dps, we don't ask to be cheated or get the most attention because we don't like the change... but because sb didn't change anything, honestly speaking most of the add was... meh or even here for compensate of some loose from the combat system revamp.

then no your way to say it is only insulting to us... because right now, we are not simply saying: "warning what you plan to do is bad" no we are passed this time... it's: "it's critical, if you don't react, we will disappear"
yes a few new player will try monk, until they try another jobs and we will feel more rewarded for appealed to play.

because monk is not the only fast jobs anymore, ninja do it too and fairly well with that.

because monk is not the top dps anymore, sam it is and it deserve it.

because monk combo is not the top edge anymore, dragoon have a more evolued combo system than us.

because monk have nothing more than it defining him... because monk is now in a situation where utility will not help... we need a rework. we need to have a clear identity, what we don't have anymore!

[Paladinleeds]

snip

You're right. All the points are legitimate, but one thing that confuses the heck outta me is the way that physical damage is broken up by type:
Slashing: PLD, WAR, DRK, NIN, SAM
Piercing: DRG, BRD, MCH (I think BRD/MCH use piercing, since they use arrows and gunshots. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here!)
Blunt: MNK

This creates a huge problem, because the piercing debuff of DRG will benefit your BRD/MCH (assuming BRD/MCH are piercing damage), creating some synergy, your slashing debuff of NIN (and WAR I think), synergises with the other tanks, and the SAM. MNK's blunt resistance down affects whom now... just them. SAM is the selfish DPS and gets boosted further by the synergy of a NIN or a WAR's slashing debuff. Which makes them even more powerful compared to MNK. Especially in higher tier play, synergy is a big factor. We need a good party makeup that works well with each other. I know you said we shouldn't wait until next expansion but here's what I would do, but it would have to be next expansion.
New healer: Dancer. Off-healer type role, their magic would be healing only, all attacks would be physical blunt damage and would be used to channel their healing power (thus giving them a reason to DPS!)
New tank: Not sure what tank you'd think of, but something that uses blunt weapons. Maybe make it defensive based like PLD?

This would then give the MNK some synergy with other jobs, and help give them a reason to exist. They would have other jobs that can match up with. I think this would go a long way to helping bridge the gap. There's many other issues here, but I feel this is one I can see the need addressing.