Yoshi-P on Tenacity

[Dizzy_Derp]

Tenacity is better than dh as is. You gain 80% of the dos benefit while taking less damage. Less damage means more healer dps. It's overall a greater dps gain than dh. As for melding, the reason it seems useless is because melding for anything is useless. Dh gives pitiful amounts from melds as well.

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

[Kosmos992k]

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

You know, I'm not sure your numbers are right. The reason being SE know the exact way in which each stat scales. Short of someone intentionally trolling layers I can't conceive of Tenacity scaling as poorly as you suggest, nor that Direct Hit would scale decently for Tanks at all. It would be a trivial Excel exercise for them to math it out. So, short of SE having malicious intent, you are wrong. And I have a very hard time believing SE would be so cavalier as to allow this kind of trolling.

[Quri]

snip

It's more of a middle ground. 180-220 tenacity gives a 1% damage, damage reduction, and healing recovery. Going full fending gear as of now with as of now should hit you close to 1200 tenacity which is around 6% damage reduction and increase. If it was lower to say 100 or so, tenacity would be a broken stat.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ect_hit_data/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...o_stat_values/

That being said Tenacity is a very strong secondary that looks to get better as we an increase in ilvl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMOVb-x6xr4&t=1s

[Kuwagami]

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

first off, if you want to compare stats, you should compare similar inputs. If we go for the longshot scaling, we get 40 DH for 1% rate, so 160 DH for 1% damage up, and 200 tenacity for 1% damage dealt up, damage taken down, and heal received.

The theoretical set-up is 520 melds because right side is pure STR (let's not introduce the i270 STR accessories here since SE clearly wants them gone) and we ignore tenacity capping. We also ignore the fact that melding crit would be better than DH or tenacity anyway.

That means 3.25% damage up from DH (13% DH rate) and 2.6% damage dealt up, damage received down, and healing received up. You're trading 0.65% dps for 2.6% damage reduction. We'll consider 2,000 dps for tanks for simplicity's sake, and susano's damage on tanks. Which is give or take 1,700 dps over a 9 minutes fight (with CDs used accordingly so that a VIT tank would not die and allow healer dps). You're trading 12 dps dealt for 44 dps received. Or, over 9 minutes, 6,480 damage dealt for 23,760 damage received.

Now what does it mean in measurable terms? Well, your 6,480 damage dealt are neglictible in the 8.6M HP pool of Susano. Like, really. Utterly neglictible. Your team DPS is above 15k, which means melding purely DH over tenaticty helped your team get a 0.4 second faster kill.

Meanwhile, Tenacity shaved off 23k damage received, which, in my PFs' usual HPS, means about 2 seconds of healing (6k HPS overall from each healer). Said healers got 2 seconds to dps more then, and their dps is about 600 (again, in PF parties, not top raiders). That means 2,400 damage that are done by healers that you could not take into consideration by just looking at the tank stats on paper. What you are trading in the end is neglictible damage dealt for not-so-neglictible damage reduction.





Even at top raiding level, where tanks do 3k dps and healers have combined 3k dps over 6 minutes with still the same 1700 dtps, DH gives 18 bonus dps over tenacity, so 6k damage over the fight. Meanwhile, tenacity saves 15,840 damage, which is about 3 seconds of healing according to FFlogs, so 9k damage done by healers.


Conclusion : Tenacity is far from being shit, and even wins out in the long run as your healers are able to pump out more dps. With that said, the difference in damage between DH and tenacity is so neglictible that you may as well just take tenacity just because the damage reduction makes it better in the end.


Conclusion #2 : All of this is irrelevant anyway since you'll meld crit anywhere you can before even considering DH or tenacity. Considering the lack of DH on tank gear, in the remaining few spots where crit is already maxed, you might as well put tenacity for reliable dps rather than cling to a 5% DH rate with neglictible returns.

EDIT in regards to conclusion #2 : apparently, crit is now somewhat dull in regards to DH. So you'd want to meld tenacity or DH instead, making DH the go-to meld on tenacity-capped stuff

[Kabooa]

first off

I thought savage was coming out tomorrow.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

[Kuwagami]

I thought savage was coming out tomorrow.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

Your point being? Savage coming out tomorrow has nothing to do with the argument I gave about tenacity not being trash

[Kabooa]

Your point being? Savage coming out tomorrow has nothing to do with the argument I gave about tenacity not being trash

(The joke is you were savage af.)

[Kuwagami]

(The joke is you were savage af.)

*wooosh*

I totally missed your point I blame the removal of accuracy for that!

[Kabooa]

*wooosh*

I totally missed your point I blame the removal of accuracy for that!

I have noticed I can't seem to (directly) hit anything once hitting 70!

[Shinkyo]

so 160 DH for 1% damage up, and 200 tenacity for 1% damage dealt up, damage taken down, and heal received.

This needs to be upvoted!
There's a lot of misinterpretation on Tenacity over the other secondaries.
According to current theorycrafting, Tenacity is only slightly less potent than Determination and can even match it depending if you're able to reach the next stat threshold with the melds available.
DH is going to be the best DPS sub but Tenacity isn't far behind and has additional utility which may/may not be valuable to your group.
I'd say 2.5% damage reduces and healing received isn't all that bad of a trade off for 0.65% DPS loss.