Please nerf RDM!

[Eydis]

snip

Why don't you tell that to the mass amount of people that are struggling to get their wins. Not me, I know the fights, I have countless wins and several ilvl315+ jobs. I frequently go into party finder and help people get their clears.

Nerfing a high end dps only makes the game harder for others.

Can't tell you how many players I have seen screwed over on their 40+ minute duty finder queue because someone jackass tank or healer got mad that some new guy didn't know mechanics and bailed on the first wipe.

Tell that 6 minute clear to the people that are struggling because nobody will stick around to help them, tell it to the people that can't clear the lvl 70 susano dummy in time and need to be carried by a rdm or sam.

[Galvuu]

Why don't you tell that to the mass amount of people that are struggling to get their wins.

Sure I do.
I join clear/practice parties all the time, and try my best to tell them what they're doing wrong- both in the fight and their job.
And I'm telling you this now because you brought it up as a justification against nerfs in general.
How is "there are people who don't know how to play very well, so we must leave a job that's (potentially) too strong the way it is" an argument?
I'm not even in the "nerf RDM" camp, but that argument is very silly.
"We shouldn't nerf X job because someone out there can't clear an EX primal"...?

Edit: Not to mention that literally 95% of the enrages I see are people dying constantly to mechanics (lowers dps) or completely disregarding their rotations. If MCH can clear these primals with 4 minutes of leeway in respect to the enrage, there's no way any slight RDM nerfs will make them unable to clear the new primals due to "enrages". This isn't Thordan (and even if it was, that argument would hold no weight whatsoever).

[Eydis]

So your answer to a debate you aren't even in, is to nerf them slightly because people suck at mechanics and can't get their clears? Sounds like you are in the "nerf RDM" camp.

Furthermore.... Those 6 minute clears are from groups of people that have tons of practice and generally have a rdm and a sam in there. Take 4 MCH into primal EX tell me the clear times.

The EX primals were an example, not an arguement. Want another one? We don't even know what savage will bring and people are screaming for nerfs, for all you know rdm and sam will be the reason for the clears. You don't know what kind of DPS checks will be needed.
Want another reason to stop screaming for nerfs? WE STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT BUFFS WILL HAPPEN TO THE JOBS!

[Eydis]

The answer isn't nerfs like everyone thinks immediately as soon as their favorite job is surpassed by another job. Other jobs need buffs, the dps classes need to be tighter than they are.

According to the initial DPS chart, there was more than a 1k difference in dps between the highest DPS (sam) and the lowest dps (mch). Some jobs flat need a buff. The original dps chart stated rdm was only in the 4th dps slot which actually sounds reasonable.
sam, blm, smn, rdm, nin, mnk, drg, brd, mch.
Granted this is all anecdotal evidence, but then again as many runs I have seen. It seems to be fairly accurate.

Go to FFlogs and you will see a list of various jobs in the top 100, mostly sam, understandably due to their lack of utility. In the top 100 you will see about the same nin, blm, and mnk as rdm, even a brd in there.

[Galvuu]

snip

No... my answer isn't to nerf RDM. I was speaking in an hypothetical scenario because this whole exchange started with RDM.
I'm saying that in the case RDM- or any other job- does need to be nerfed, the argument that "some groups can't clear the content" cannot be used to stop that.
If it so happens that there are comps that cannot reasonably clear a piece of content, then that content is overtuned and needs to have its numbers adjusted.
If RDM and SAM turn out to be mandatory for Savage clears, then Savage is poorly tuned and there is a serious issue with job balance.
It's neither fair that a piece of relevant content (Savage) requires these two jobs, nor is it good balance.
And if that happens (that you need 2 or 3 specific dps jobs in your comp to clear Savage) I'll be very disappointed. We don't want an "AST in Gordias" situation for sure.
I'm not screaming "nerfs". I was discrediting your original argument against nerfing in general.

Also, those 6 minute clears are good evidence that if you practice and learn your job well you can clear. You don't need to kill a primal in 6 minutes to get your clear.
But if that's possible, with some effort, you can surely get your clear in the initially planned 11 and a half minutes.
If someone is consistently struggling with that, then perhaps they need to rethink their approach or practice their fundamentals.
Even then, it's not realistic to think everyone will clear every primal/savage.
It's never been this way, and it never will.

Not sure what you're trying to illustrate with your top 100 example either.
Sure, almost anyone that plays his job competently can get fed enhanced balances and have a dedicated cheese comp and end up there... what's that supposed to bear in this discussion?

(For what it counts, I don't have a group and got my clears in the PF, playing a generally unfavourable job this patch)
(... I always end up spending half my post count clearing up things I said. I never said "we must nerf RDM" or anything to that effect in any post ever...)

[Eydis]

If RDM and SAM turn out to be mandatory for Savage clears, then Savage is poorly tuned and there is a serious issue with job balance.
It's neither fair that a piece of relevant content (Savage) requires these two jobs, nor is it good balance.

This is exactly why I was saying don't nerf sam and rdm. Buff other jobs

The problem is people only see rdm and sam as high dps roles and rdm has utility and think, "well rdm needs to be nerfed." Which in turn fixes absolutely nothing.
Nerfing rdm dps makes it a mediocre dps with cures, you know like.... a healer with a bit more dps.

Embolden has already had the math run on it, the dps gain is minimal at best.... BUT!!!! People see rdm high dps, cures, and embolden and think "nerf rdm!"
Again you have a mediocre dps with cures.

[Eydis]

Now if you want to nerf rdm dps, you have to increase the utility, maybe allow rdm to refresh the mages (not that mages really run out of mp and all mages can use mana shift as is) So now refresh is a dead concept

Buff embolden would be another option, (something I have yet to see mentioned, but I could have missed it, mostly people just cry for nerfs and I skip reading all the crap) but by how much before people start screaming for nerfs again?

Give rdm more dmg mitigation for other players could be an option. But then you are competing with drk as an OT using TBN on the MT. Granted that would beef up drk dps, but this lowers rdm dps role and makes it more of a healer/support role.


The number one problem is people scream nerf, be it you (or not) or someone else. Nerfing a job means you lose what it has to offer. Buffing a job too much means all the other jobs look under powered.
Go through histories of video game nerfs and tell me how many of them turned out good.

That being said, check this video out on nerfs/buffs etc
https://youtu.be/bsC8io4w1sY

[Millen1]

I don't play RDM but a lot of my friends do and they love it as is. Watching them play it I think it is where it should be. It would be far better and safer for SE to buff BLM (which I play and like) and smn up to match up more with RDM. I have never been keen on the way SE nerfs jobs, they generally over nerf and under buff when making changes.

[Melondra]

Black mage highest DPS in turms of Single Magic attact ability, Summoner Highes AOE Damage and dots, and of corse you have the melee jobs that are melee based attacts, the versitilty of Red mage allows them to use all styles but those styles should never ever out do jobs that specialize in it.

[Shurrikhan]

Usually I think instead of nerfing a job, they should just make all the other jobs as good as this one.

Gameplay-wise, if able to maintain unique flavor, sure. But performance wise... well, as long as all mobs, buffs, and mechanics are getting buffs too. But at that point, it's a lot of work to have the same effect as a nerf...

But in RDM's case, it's supposed to be a JACK of all trades, not a king of DPS.

I'm not sure their current iteration really draws *that* heavily on the Jack of All Trades concept as to bar them from being top-running DPS. Rather, their sheer mobility more than makes up for the potential DPS gap between them and casters who have far more to lose. You could consider their reason for a potential nerf in the same light as a 4-Bard composition in early ARR—not because they offer too much support, per se, but because they offer too much consistency.

Its dummy DPS is in a reasonable enough place. But by nature of its mobility and leniency, the gap rapidly shrinks in real encounters. Perhaps a little too much.