Tanks and super pulls

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

snip

Yes. Our healer was shirked and yes they were playing acceptably, by trying to balance healing and damage (and not screaming at everyone not to take damage so they could maximize their dps). We thought it was a mis-click but they posted a snooty little emoji in the chat and the only reason they were not immediately kicked was because we were almost at the last boss and it wasn't worth the wait for a Tank who was less entitled.

The argument that it is SE's fault that the game is designed for maximum damage output is only MAYBE true for Savage/EX/Ultimates. Standard content is pretty much made to be completed with mash-button damage (albeit not quickly) and for Tank optimization to work, the party basically had to devote time and effort to manage something that wasn't damage output--it wasn't just pressing a button, it was paying attention to your threat level acting accordingly. All so the tank could eek out more dps.

While I can understand this strategy in those high-end duties, expecting this in standard content was not only laughable, it created a huge backlash which caused pretty much all utility between the roles to be removed. Now the roles are clear and set in stone. And boring. But hey. This has somehow enabled 'Green DPS' healers. I can't wait to see SE's reaction to that.

I'll conceed that it was mostly idiots abusing the system back then, but even when SE added more utility to the roles, it was still just used to squeeze out more dps . That will never stop being a thing but it's not a design flaw. Just a human one.

[Shurrikhan]

Yes. Our healer was shirked and yes they were playing acceptably, by trying to balance healing and damage (and not screaming at everyone not to take damage so they could maximize their dps). We thought it was a mis-click but they posted a snooty little emoji in the chat and the only reason they were not immediately kicked was because we were almost at the last boss and it wasn't worth the wait for a Tank who was less entitled.

Oof. That sucks. And yeah, that's of course unacceptable. I was just curious as to whether you meant that in a "tunnel-visioned neglect of others' ability to perform" sort of way, which would tie more closely to what you were talking about before, or outright griefing. I see it was the latter.

it wasn't just pressing a button, it was paying attention to your threat level acting accordingly. All so the tank could eek out more dps.

To be fair, though, that is only a thing when your tank is outright griefing, as above, or utterly ignorant that the game didn't, at that time, have enmity modifiers on all but select skills. Everyone else's contribution to tank damage output was solely Shadewalker, Tactician, Refresh, Lucid Dreaming, Purification, Third Eye, and -- above all -- Diversion. And as you could never have access to more than 2 of those at a time, and the main one could simply be hit on CD, one could call it bloat but rarely ever much of a mechanic or lasting concern for anyone but the tank.

While I can understand this strategy in those high-end duties, expecting this in standard content was not only laughable, it created a huge backlash which caused pretty much all utility between the roles to be removed. Now the roles are clear and set in stone. And boring. But hey. This has somehow enabled 'Green DPS' healers. I can't wait to see SE's reaction to that.

Apart from the Ranged Role Actions, Diversion was the only utility removed. Invigorate was not utility; it was just bloat that let you continue to do things rather than giving all physical dps a 3-to-5-minute expiration timer. The Ranged role was also far more set in stone before the removal of their shared actions.

Likewise, Green DPS have been commonplace since ARR. You've already seen their reaction to it. So long as standard content is "made to be completed with mash-button damage" and similarly poor healing, Green DPS will be the predominant gameplay loop of all healers as increasingly more healing power is placed into actions that they cannot expect the lowest denominator to use yet all others maintain access to.

[ForteNightshade]

The argument that it is SE's fault that the game is designed for maximum damage output is only MAYBE true for Savage/EX/Ultimates. Standard content is pretty much made to be completed with mash-button damage (albeit not quickly) and for Tank optimization to work, the party basically had to devote time and effort to manage something that wasn't damage output--it wasn't just pressing a button, it was paying attention to your threat level acting accordingly. All so the tank could eek out more dps.

When it comes to Diversion there was nothing to pay attention to. Press it before you start attacking or sometime after. Even if you were five GCDs in and pressed it, you'd be fine assuming the tank knew what they were doing. Only Paladin had issues given it had garbage aggro generation and Shield Oath lost them a GCD. Lucid required you to glance at the party list—something healers should already be doing. None of this is to say tanks should go around Shirking but lets not pretend like Diversion and Lucid were remotely difficult.

While I can understand this strategy in those high-end duties, expecting this in standard content was not only laughable, it created a huge backlash which caused pretty much all utility between the roles to be removed. Now the roles are clear and set in stone. And boring. But hey. This has somehow enabled 'Green DPS' healers. I can't wait to see SE's reaction to that.

As Shurrikhan said, what utility? This game has never put any emphasise on CC abilities. Refresh was axed because the devs assumed it'd force healers to heal more (Ha!), which has nothing to do with tank aggro. Speaking of, "Green DPS" is a thing because this game has pitifully low damage output and overpowered healing spells. When not even Ultimate demands 50% healing, of course healers are going to prioritize their damage. This is entirely on the dev team for continuing to assume people play in a manner we don't. They added a plethora of healing spells when that's the last things healers needed. What happened? Things like Temperance, Seraph and etc are hilariously overpowered for anything outside Savage. The problem has always been content doesn't give healers a reason to heal.

Their reaction will likely be to keep things as are or cave and give healers more of a DPS kit next expansion. Why? They know if they forced healers to heal, i.e., locked out DPS spells in instances, people would quit the role in droves. And they don't want to make healing more challenging, thus nothing will change.

]'ll conceed that it was mostly idiots abusing the system back then, but even when SE added more utility to the roles, it was still just used to squeeze out more dps . That will never stop being a thing but it's not a design flaw. Just a human one.

Because nothing else matters. How isn't it a design flaw? If I can heal a dungeon without touching my GCDs or have 70-90% of my casts be DPS abilities and no one dies. What else am I going to be doing except damage? People didn't decide one day to be Green/Blue DPS. They realized the system not only allowed them to push numbers but outright encouraged it. Until SE's design philosophy changes. People are going to prioritize damage over everything else.