Tanks and super pulls

[VanilleFang]

Gotta recommend against this.
At best it's a waste of time.
At worst it can destroy a group.

Healers really aren't in the greatest position to be determining pull size for a pug, so it isn't really a fair question to a healer to begin with. If they say large pulls are okay and a wipe occurs, it can make the healer feel as if the party is holding them responsible, regardless of whose fault it was. This can quickly snowball into a healer pointing blame, the other party member getting defensive, and the group disbanding/waiting to replace a party member.

Uuuuh. What? Doom and gloom much? That's a very dramatic escalation you assume there...
Asking healers if they are find with big pulls is mostly a courtesy. It makes no real difference to DPS except what rotation they will be using, so why would you need to ask them? And if you pull big without asking and the healer isn't very experienced...

@Besame & hynaku: Big pulls are REALLY easy to heal, especially on WHM. It takes practice but it's really, really easy.

[Besame]

Vanille here is an example. Simple dungeon: Kugane. Tagging a trash group and taking it to 1 other if fine but you have the idiot tank that runs it to the next group also so now we have 3. At the end of those 3 groups, another instant group pops so now we have remnants of the first groups and 4 new mobs which aoe blast to deal with. This usually ends in disaster with the slim possibility that you may have a SMN. If not, always disaster after the tank and healer die. You can heal your heart out if this is what you enjoy but it is not to my liking.

[winsock]

Uuuuh. What? Doom and gloom much? That's a very dramatic escalation you assume there...

Sry, if that came off a little doomy and gloomy. I try to trace back issues where party's fall apart when I can, and this question and been a culprit several times. I know my personal experiences of the issues i've seen this question cause arent enough to really enough to say: "this question is bad". However, I can confirm several times over that it can be a catalyst in groups falling apart. That, coupled with the fact that there is really no benefit in asking this question, I would strongly recommend that it not be asked.

The "group falling apart scenario" that i see this contribute to goes like this:
tank: big pulls okay?
healer: yes please!
* a wipe occurs *
healer thinks to themselves: i just gave permission to pull big and we wiped! I need to let the party know it was the tank's fault! (or something else such as: that was embarrassing, im just gonna drop party)
Then it goes downhill from there.

Asking healers if they are find with big pulls is mostly a courtesy.

As mentioned earlier, i can confirm this question can lead to problems. I want to address this part to explain why this question has no real value.

PUG summary:
For the tank to answer a question like "big pulls okay?" to themselves, they just need to (at the very least) assume the healer is capable of pressing 1 button repeatedly (ex: cure II spam). It's not a very bold assumption to be making.
I mean, I could technically ask if they know how to spam cure II, but I think it would probably come off as patronizing lol.

For the healer to answer a question like "big pulls okay?", they need to trust that the tank knows how to pull properly, uses cooldowns appropriately, holds threat, knows how far they can pull, etc. which is a much bigger assumption. The answer they give is based on a much larger set of unknowns than the tank's answer.

And if you pull big without asking and the healer isn't very experienced...

An alternative way of thinking is: Why would you want an inexperienced healer to set something as important pace?

[NephthysVasudan]

PUG summary:
For the tank to answer a question like "big pulls okay?" to themselves, they just need to (at the very least) assume the healer is capable of pressing 1 button repeatedly (ex: cure II spam). It's not a very bold assumption to be making.
I mean, I could technically ask if they know how to spam cure II, but I think it would probably come off as patronizing lol.

And that is why I think your reasoning is full of garbage.


Healers do not spam cure 2...there's a lot more to it than that. I suggest you bother to learn and read and study what healers do to efficiently heal.
People like you and your pompous attitudes about "asking that question is a waste of time and leads to problems "are why I stopped healing on random roulette in dungeons.

Communication is everything...if you don't ask the question...you only have yourself to blame..and YOU are at fault for not speaking up.

Now go spam your attack button like a good little tank. *sarcasm*

[Metalwrath]

Btw all his healers are level 70 so maybe thats how he plays healer XD

[NephthysVasudan]

Btw all his healers are level 70 so maybe thats how he plays healer XD

I don't want him healing for my party ever if all he thinks we do is "Spam cure 2"

Good luck have fun happy death.

[winsock]

Healers do not spam cure 2...there's a lot more to it than that. I suggest you bother to learn and read and study what healers do to efficiently heal.

I mained healer from ARR through HW. Cure II spam is mechanically what i would consider the minimum skill check for most large pulls. If they can do at least that, I'm fine to pull big on most pulls.

They will very likely be using a wider variety of skills. The point is that the absolute minimum amount of skill required from a healer during most large pulls is quite low, so assuming their sustained hps output is somewhere between the minimum requirement and cure II spam is not making a huge assumption. If I assume wrong, it's pretty easy to mentor them up to an acceptable threshold.

Communication is everything...if you don't ask the question...you only have yourself to blame..and YOU are at fault for not speaking up.

Communication is fine, this specific question is pointless. By all means, let me know what information i can gain from this question that will be beneficial.
* "I'm new". Not valuable.
* "S/M/L pulls pls". Not valuable. I can make a +10 mob pull that is easier to heal through than a 6 mob pull. An inexperienced healer wont know this.

Another way of looking at this is:
An inexperienced healer wont know what the hps check will be like, so it make no sense for an inexperienced healer to set the pace. Setting a pace that is too slow will cost you as well.

I dont ask this question, use PUG healers more often than not, and pretty much since the release of stormblood, i have lead with a pull to the wall in expert roulette. The number of first-pull wipes i have experienced over countless ex roulette runs is 0. That's not to say everything went smoothly. Some required selfheals/potions/etc, but 0 wipes thus far. Should I have one in the future, I've already made up for it several times over.

People like you and your pompous attitudes about "asking that question is a waste of time and leads to problems "are why I stopped healing on random roulette in dungeons.

At the risk of sounding cliché, you dont know me. Instead of attacking me directly, why not make a counterpoint to my argument? Prove that this question provides value and isnt a waste of time.

[NephthysVasudan]

I know the following about you by your own admission:

You assume that healers just spam cure 2
You assume everything said in the party is a waste of time and not worth your time

Conclusion - I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you.

[VanilleFang]

Okay so there's a bit I need/want to reply to here and I'm on my phone so bear with me!

Kugane

Which pull are you talking about here specifically? The last stretch before Yojimbo? I don't really know what to say. It takes good spell and ability usage to heal through a pull like that, as well as a tank who knows how to use CDs. Things like HG and Holy can make it a bit easier.

* a wipe occurs *

I'll be a little blunt here. Any here who ends up leaving because they said that big pulls were okay and the party wipes is not worth their salt as a healer.
If the wipe was the healer's fault then they should apologize. I personally will tell me team "my b. I was slow with x" or "Oh sorry. My fault. I guess I wasn't ready." I will then either tell them to try again if they want or they can pull slower. If it wasn't the healer's fault (tank cleaved party/DPS is super low/tank doesn't use cds/etc) then they shouldn't feel any guilt at all. In those situations I either say "I don't know what happened" or "our DPS is a little low maybe we should try pulling smaller". Maybe it's just me but having a tough skin (especially as healer and tank) is almost a requirement.

i can confirm this question can lead to problems.

Personal anecdotes aren't really confirmation. It may happen but it's not a guarantee nor does it make that outcome the norm. I understand what you are saying but I've had entirely different experiences as a healer.

1 button

That's assuming the dps is up to snuff. Cure II spam is fine but it's not very MP efficient. I know healers don't really need to worry too much about MP end game but if DPS is crazy low Cure II spam could cause some issues with MP. And if DPS is low and the healer can't help with killing things than the big pull was pointless.

trust tank

I'm under the assumption if they are asking than they know what they are doing. If they don't then they shouldn't be asking. It's a partnership between healers and tanks. If one can't hold up their side of the partnership than it won't work. That's why I think it should be agreed with between both the tank and healer (though I am the type to assume that big pulls are the default). It's presumptuous to think it's just the tank that determines the success of a pull. I've personally healed through pulls where the tank was basically a fish out of water.

inexperienced healer?

I'm not? I'm saying that if the tank doesn't know the healer has no experience and they pull big because of the assumption that they can "push 1 button" and things go to hell it could possibly turn out the same how you described in your original post, or worse. If they were to ask before the pull they could have avoided the wipe if the healer replies with "no". Like I said, it's a partnership.

[winsock]

It's a partnership between healers and tanks. If one can't hold up their side of the partnership than it won't work. [snip] I've personally healed through pulls where the tank was basically a fish out of water.

I agree it is a partnership, but you've got to take it a step further:
How does the tank asking this question better the partnership? I dont believe it does.

Suppose a tank asks a healer if large pulls are okay, one of the following may happen:
A) The healer says "yes" knowing that the dungeon is easy enough to heal through even if the tank is a "fish out of water"
B) The healer says "yes" assuming the tank knows their fundamentals
C) The healer says "no" because they are not confident in the tank
D) The healer says "no" because they themselves are inexperienced

Now consider the above points from the perspective of a tank:
A) The question provides no value in this scenario. The outcome will be the same.
B) The question provides no value in this scenario if the tank knows their fundamentals.
C) The question provides a negative value in this scenario if the tank knows their fundamentals.
D) This healer realistically doesnt know what the hps checks will actually be like, so it's not a good idea to have them make the call. In addition, this healer is likely able to spam cure II at a minimum / can be easily mentored into an acceptable level of hps.

Perhaps there are some scenarios that i've missed, but i dont see the value here.
If I know that I know how to handle a large pull, there is no reason for me to ask as far as I can tell.