4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

**Galvuu** · 07-14-2017 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Chronons

What?? Are we just going to ignore that casters are punished less by mechanics than melee and ranged physical even less than that?
People liked this post, I am confused.

You've never played a caster in your life, I'm assuming.
Melees have gapclosers to get back onto the boss quickly.
Or, for your puddle case, check this out.
The melee more or less stack on the back and one of the flanks (left or right). The puddles spawn and then you strafe to the other flank. While staying within range to keep hitting the boss.
Like all good melees do. If you didn't do this, feel free to apply it and enjoy your 98%+ dps uptime.
Do you know who does not have that option and does 0 dps while moving?
That's right. It's Black Mage.

Now I want you all to go play BLM on Susano EX and then come here, with a straight face, and convince me a NIN or a MNK are "more punished by mechanics".

Or, you know what?
Open fflogs and check the 90% percentile and check dps uptime. And then tell me who comes dead last.
I can't believe I have to type this out.

**Chronons** · 07-14-2017 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by Galvuu

You've never played a caster in your life, I'm assuming.

Or, you know what?
Open fflogs and check the 90% percentile and check dps uptime. And then tell me who comes dead last.
I can't believe I have to type this out.

Just so you know this is called an Argument from Authority, its wrong and a bad argument. If you want to prove someone wrong argue their points not their character. Dont worry, your not the only one who did it.

That being said - I hate to have annoyed you so egregiously. Allow me to clarify a few things in answering your questions.

I dont think it is appropriate for melee to out dps casters "by like 10%". I agree at the end of a raid calc "equivalent" forms of caster and melee should be equal. Meaning I agree, SAM should do as much damage as BLM on somewhere like fflogs. However, I maintain that casters are less punished by mechanics than melee and that is the reason why caster should do marginally less damage than melee. To account for this fact. It could very well be the case that it is unbalanced right now, I never commented on that. Only that the reason for melee generally being higher than casters is the aforementioned opinion. SE seems to agree with me based on their treatment of the two roles thus far.

Originally Posted by CecMiller

snip

See above for a bit of debate advice. At least you have a melee lvled. The other poster wanted to hit me with a bat that could inversely be used on them.

I did go look at fflogs after the other poster mentioned it. As you say generally speaking good players fall in a 1-2% distribution as far uptime is concerned. I see some BLMs with more uptime than some SAMs and vice versa. I dont disagree that BLM should be equal to SAM, just in how other posters think it should get there. In all fairness Susano may have been a poor example, I underestimate how critical people in the forums can be. I only brought it up to point out that when a mechanic must be dodged, it is generally true that melee will have a longer time before being able to return to its main rotation than a caster. Of course there are ways to cheese that and likely any example I would have brought up would have been met with a similar response. I think if you looked at the breadth of content in the game it is generally true that casters have more uptime than melee due to mechanics, which is why historically SE has had melee do more damage than casters.

**Galvuu** · 07-14-2017 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Chronons

[I]snip.

What? No it's not.
I'm not arguing that a good player is right because he's a good player.

I'm using statistical data to prove my hypothesis.

I'm saying, on average, casters have less uptime than melee. And, to prove it, I linked you parses (aka actual raid data) that shows my points. Like thousands.
I suggested the 90% percentile so player skill (aka: casters play worse, or casters are harder to play at a competent level) isn't a factor.
For good players, on average, casters have less uptime, which validates my point.
Where is the "argument from authority" here? Where did I argue your character beyond underlining that you do not understand what you're talking about? Of course if you don't understand the phenomena, your opinion on it will have limited validity.
You're free to prove me wrong by proving experimental data which validates your position.

EDIT: isn't what you described ad hominem anyway.

**Chronons** · 07-14-2017 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Galvuu

EDIT: isn't what you described ad hominem anyway.

Attacking a person as opposed to an argument is Ad Hominem, claiming experience as a qualifier for correctness is an Argument from Authority. It can lead credence, but not make it veridical.

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

**Ariyn** · 07-14-2017 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by Chronons

Attacking a person as opposed to an argument is Ad Hominem, claiming experience as a qualifier for correctness is an Argument from Authority. It can lead credence, but not make it veridical.

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

If you actually look at those logs you can blatently see that the entire group was built around buffing their top dps. The sam had balance for 3/4ths of the fight along with bard crit, trick attack, and emboldens. The BLM did not have all of that. Again, judging because you see a log showing numbers doesn't mean those numbers are accurate. They are what a class can do when everyone else pushes them forward.

But I do agree that skill plays the biggest factor in everything. A skilled ranged class knows they should be preplanning movement and always be casting. Melee doesn't have that down side but they are forced off of bosses much more often giving them higher levels of downtime over a skilled ranged.

**Chronons** · 07-14-2017 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ariyn

If you actually look at those logs you can blatently see that the entire group was built around buffing their top dps. The sam had balance for 3/4ths of the fight along with bard crit, trick attack, and emboldens. The BLM did not have all of that. Again, judging because you see a log showing numbers doesn't mean those numbers are accurate. They are what a class can do when everyone else pushes them forward.

But I do agree that skill plays the biggest factor in everything. A skilled ranged class knows they should be preplanning movement and always be casting. Melee doesn't have that down side but they are forced off of bosses much more often giving them higher levels of downtime over a skilled ranged.

I agree with you. I dont think those logs are indicative of the jobs balance, just a data point on uptime alone. Obviously padding goes on there, and while I am usually remiss to argue based on its data I wasnt the one to bring it up.

**jamvng** · 07-14-2017 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by Chronons

snip

Uptime for melee vs casters is dependent on fight. Susano is a bad example because there are many mechanics that hit random DPS that cause loss of uptime. Lightning causes one person to move (and melee to lose uptime), stun causes a huge loss of uptime, and Gaol even more so.

Some mechanics may affect a caster more while others can affect melee more. For puddles in Susano, you can often hit the boss while dodging puddles as a melee without losing uptime, especially if party coordinates and baits the puddles properly. As a caster, if you get a puddle at a bad time, you have to cancel your cast (which basically means you wasted that whole period of casting with no DPS), and move (again no DPS while moving), before you can start casting again. On the other hand, mechanics that cause melee to leave boss range for extended periods of time (like crossing chasm for lightning prey) will lose melee more uptime.
(cont'd below)

**Osh1mA** · 07-14-2017 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Chronons

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

How are this parses even proving your point? less than 1% of uptime result in 500+dps difference or what? Caster in SAMs party has less active time

**Sunako** · 07-14-2017 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Chronons

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

Did you notice blm and samurai encounter time is different. If encounter take longer % time of downtime(sword phase) is smaller and your uptime is higher. Longer the enounter is, higher your uptime is in susano if you are lucky enough and not get into stun by mechanics in susano. Thats why majority of best parses have like 8 - 9min enounter time and 6min speed kills have little lower personal dps.

**Chronons** · 07-14-2017 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Sunako

snip

I did, I dont think anyone could objectively prove which has greater uptime over all content without serious data crunching. I dont even think those logs service as any kind of grand proof of concept. They are just a data point suggesting that under certain circumstances a BLM can achieve higher uptime than a melee like SAM. Those circumstances vary and dont account for the vast dps difference between the two jobs, as I have said. However, if that base premise is true (that melee are greater effected by mechs) it would mean that making BLM=SAM or BLM>SAM in terms of dps would effectively make SAM obsolete.

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