Thread: 4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

Originally Posted by Gallus

DRG has dragon sight, litany and disembowel. That's a lot of raid damage (especially litany and disembowel). RDM's embolden is nowhere near what provides DRG. NIN is a bit closer because TA is strong. The issue with DRG is that it's a very inconvenient class to play... lots of positionals with massive punishing dps loss if failed (cough samurai cough), long ogcd animations and a timer that makes your life hell.

Except Litany and dragon sight put together is roughly the same as embolden in contribution. Disembowel is a wildcard because realistically it will only provide for one other class, which would possibly be slightly less than what litany currently provides. RDM is a super convenient class to play also, so someone pushing a DRG to the max should be higher than someone pushing RDM to the max, because on average RDM is affected by skill level a lot less. Basically RDM should outperform DRG until the 95th percentile.

Originally Posted by Gallus

So it's like this atm.

Melee: SAM/NIN> MNK/DRG
Casters: RDM>BLM/SMN
Ranged: BRD>MCH

How rankings should be:

1 - SAM/BLM
2 - MNK
3 - SMN
4 - RDM/NIN
5 - DRG
6 - MCH
7 - BRD

How rankings really are atm:

1 - SAM
2 - RDM
3 - BLM
4 - SMN
5 - NIN/MNK
6 - DRG
7 - BRD
8 - MCH

Your rankings of how things are atm are REALLY off. SMN is bottom 3 and lowest at all percentiles below 70, but rises to 3rd worst with MCH at bottom at higher percentiles. Also there is NO WAY that BRD is doing less dps than DRG atm. BRD is always higher than DRG in the statistics of the 2 EX fights. NIN and MNK are both higher up with MNK 2nd (for the higher percentiles, but usually RDM) and NIN 4th/3rd usually. RDM at most percentiles also had 2nd place. They only really start going down the rankings at 95/99th percentiles to 3rd losing their place to monk.

My statistics for the classes are available from here: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15/#dataset=70

Fiddle around with that in the top left corner to get some idea of how certain classes perform at certain percentile/player skill levels (10th being really bad and 90+ being really good)

That said if SMN was just below Monk I'd be fine with that.

Originally Posted by Chronons

Oh wow, some of you are seriously going to argue that casters have equal uptime to melee. Yes, it is true that if you do this mechanic in a certain way with the entire raid co-operating you can make it so that melee have equal uptime with casters. That doesnt invalidate the main point. It is generally true that casters are less punished by mechanics than melee, hence the reason for them generally having higher damage.

Checking your lodestone, it seems that you don't really have you casters levelled past 30 and so have no idea how the classes play. I have my SAM to 70 and RDM/SMN at 70 and I've used them all in EX trials. Where is you evidence that casters are less punished by mechanics than melee? You mentioned uptime, so go look at fflogs and you'll notice that they're within 1-2% of each other and if anything, I see the casters having less uptimes than any other class. I do think BLM should do SAM comparable damage. If you're arguing that melee are more punished than casters with regards to mechanics, answer me this: Why are all the casters bar RDM doing such low dps on EX fights compared to dummies? SMN is bottom 3 and the supposed big hitter of the casters - BLM - is doing less than SAM (by a wide margin), MNK, RDM and NIN (yes even ninja) and only catches up at the 95/99th percentile. I've played SAM in susano and dodging the puddles are SUPER easy and you can gap close back. The uptime of melee dps isnt that different from a caster. I'd recommend you look at some susano logs and if the players are good, they should be within 1-2% of each other at most. There is no reason melee should be doing more DPS than a caster based on the fact that they're "melee". Mechanics effect both equally in general but in certain fights, it can be worse for either the caster or the melee.

You can begin by looking at some of the fastest kills where playerskill is about equal: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/MZ7fQ...pe=damage-done

You'll notice that the casters generally have the lowest uptime (healers cast too but I don't really include them as the uptime is based on dps). You can look at many more logs of equally skilled player and you'll find that the casters, in general, have lower uptime in susano (BLM is probably the worst affected here).

EDIT: Just read up on the responses. Looks like Galvuu got there first. They're completely right.

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

A caster should not be weaker than a melee, so BLM>SAM sounds about right.
For melee: SAM>Monk>DRG>NIN
For Ranged: MCH>Bard
For casters: BLM>SMN>RDM

Of course, I don't see any major changes happening yet so..

Why should casters be ahead of melee? Asking for a friend.

Originally Posted by MiruWest

Why should casters be ahead of melee, asking for a friend?

The distinction between a caster, a melee physical dps and a ranged physical dps should be inconsequential for balancing.
You look at what a job brings- utility (defensive and offensive) and personal dps, and weight those out.
A ranged and melee job with the same utility should have the same dps in a raid setting (use statistical metrics to verify this).
A caster and melee with similar utility would also follow suit there.

Of course there's the issue of role-specific utility, and you should also account for that and use it to compare jobs within the same role, but that utility is usually not as relevant (outside ranged working as mp batteries, that might be a big thing).

These numbers should the first and foremost concern (perhaps, the only concern, as things like "difficulty in execution" or "rotational complexity" are inherently subjective and it's hard to find an unbiased metric to go by that could account for such things).