4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

**Galvuu** · 07-15-2017 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by Alchemii

snip

Why does everyone put SMN so low?
You either buff the hell out of their utility, or they should be outdpsing RDM/NIN/BRD (and maybe MCH), as their utility is comparatively weaker.

**Alchemii** · 07-15-2017 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Galvuu

Why does everyone put SMN so low?
You either buff the hell out of their utility, or they should be outdpsing RDM/NIN/BRD (and maybe MCH), as their utility is comparatively weaker.

I'll agree it should be out dpsing Brd, everyone should be out dpsing Brd. However, honestly you should look more at my first ranking than the second, where I put Rdm, Smn, and Nin all on the same level. The 3 of them should be doing about the same amount of damage. The only reason smn ended up so low compared to the other two was because I put the second list together, and realized I forgot to put smn on it, so I just kinda threw it on the end.

**wereotter** · 07-15-2017 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Galvuu

Why does everyone put SMN so low?
You either buff the hell out of their utility, or they should be outdpsing RDM/NIN/BRD (and maybe MCH), as their utility is comparatively weaker.

It's not just utility, but also how effected the job is by mechanics. Summoners have the benefit of mobility since your DOTs keep ticking while you move, your pet keeps attacking, and you have Ruin II. As such being able to consistently put out damage means you shouldn't have as much DPS without mechanics as other roles that do lose DPS by moving.

As far as the original post, when it comes to the amount of utility offered by melee DPS, Monk should absolutely give higher personal DPS than a Ninja. Monk brings very little to the table, even after this patch, considering it's the only job that benefits from its blunt resistance down, Mantra is only marginally useful, and Brotherhood only really works in comps with lots of physical DPS, compared to Ninjas who bring trick attack, shade walker, and smokescreen all of which enable much more raid DPS than a monk does.

**Galvuu** · 07-15-2017 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by wereotter

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SMN could have 100% uptime (it doesn't) and its dps would still be too low.
The reality is that SMN's personal dps plus its raid dps contribution has to be in line with the median of the dps jobs. And it's not. And if it's personal dps on an realistic raid setting is as low as many people seem to think it should, then it still won't reach that median.
And don't forget that SMN has a lot of gating in its resources, so it can get very heavily punished in a raid.

**MomoOG** · 07-15-2017 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Aysen

Actual encounter for my post. The reason is simple. There has to be an order which means someone has to be last. As I said in my post. Everyone would get buffs. No nerfs. The difference between the dps of each class would go down. However, desireability has to be equal. Here are the features which determine the desireability value in a static for each class:Mobility: ability to cope with mechanics
Peak DPS: actual encounter dps
Party utility: what they being to the table

Maybe other things.

The sum of those things should be equal for each class making them all equally desireable. If I'm a bard and I do as much damage as a samurai but I additionally have a mp regen and party damage buff. Why bring a samurai. Pointless.

Edit: to answer your question about MCH, they are ranged, no cast bar dps. They can cope with mechanics better than a NIN.

Edit: thought of another factor, how easy it is to play therefore how much rng there is when you're trying to recruit one as well as reward for playing it well and dealing with everything else.

Hmm encounter dps already takes most of that into consideration. What I mean by encounter dps is the parser dps you would get on actually doing the encounter. This inherently takes things into consideration like ability to cope with mechanics, peak dps, uptime and so forth. So with all that considered I don't see why the net dps of NIN should be higher than a MCH.

**Aysen** · 07-15-2017 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by MomoOG

Hmm encounter dps already takes most of that into consideration. What I mean by encounter dps is the parser dps you would get on actually doing the encounter. This inherently takes things into consideration like ability to cope with mechanics, peak dps, uptime and so forth. So with all that considered I don't see why the net dps of NIN should be higher than a MCH.

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

**MomoOG** · 07-15-2017 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Aysen

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

I can only speak from my personal experience but I play both MNK and MCH. MNK is actually my main so I don't think I'm biased here. I find MCH harder to deal with mechanics compared to MNK. With MCH I have to keep a much closer eye on my bullets, heat gauge, and cool downs and as a result have less attention available to see what mechanics are being thrown out. Might just be me. Might just be MNK vs MCH comparison. But I don't find the whole ranged easier to deal with mechanics over melee thing to always be true.

**silentwindfr** · 07-15-2017 11:28 AM

do we forget the mana transfert spell that blm can freely use since they have no trouble of mana?

**Elnidfse** · 07-15-2017 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Aysen

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

With any mechanic that involves moving? Potentially. But unless you've been in those shoes it's impossible to explain to you just how much of a pain in the ass things like gaols, stuns, and stops ruin your entire rotation and CD management. That "cope with mechanics better" simply isn't true. We deal with movement sure, but even with something like Zurvan, melee will find times to maximize their uptime and still do respectable damage. You seem to be putting an impossible level of focus on the coveted 100% uptime without regards to the complexity of the jobs or your susceptibility to things that aren't just flat movement. It's also wrong besides.
In a perfect world a MCH/BRD who maintained 100% DPS on their supposed "100% uptime" should deal slightly less (including raid contribution) than a melee who has anywhere from 80-90% uptime. But that's not the case right now, now is it?

I was referring to a hypothetical situation wherein two equally skilled players are playing RDM and BLM respectively

In this hypothetical situation we completely ignore that SMN has a raise. And if you're treating your RDM as an FTS you're going to hit enrage regardless.

Also, casters are ruthlessly punished by mechanics. That's why their average damage per hit is higher than the average damage per hit for melee classes. This is by design by the game developers. Just look at the potency values and you'll see. Fine, not convinced?

This is also using an assumption that casters, BLM in particular can perform better on SSS or other immobile targets than for this example given the current rankings, Samurai. But this simply is not true. And Samurai also deal with movement a lot better than SMN. Both of them have no utility, and yet SMN damage is massively undertuned in comparison. At BEST they can compete with being worse than a SAM. And in action the gap between the two widens dramatically. Never you mind the complexities involved in playing BLM th a level of effectiveness that can compete.

Again you put a lot of flak on the ranged clause and caster "advantage" in general in reference to ranged. As if the option to fire from afar closes the gap between ranged and melee when that simply isn't the case. None of what you say is the case of the game or the state that it's in. Ranged that aren't RDM are outclassed by non DRG melee in the fights that we have access to.

**Galvuu** · 07-15-2017 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by silentwindfr

do we forget the mana transfert spell that blm can freely use since they have no trouble of mana?

Most teams will have a BRD/MCH being a mana battery.
I can afford to Mana Shift once per 3~4 minutes on RDM (unless I'm rezing a lot, but that's what usually taxes the healers for mana, so if I Verraise they won't need the Mana Shift).
Realistically, if I'm help with rezing, I don't need to Mana Shift, and I've never had to Mana Shift more than once/twice per battle.
BLM is unquestionably the best Mana Shifter in the game. They can afford to do it on cd with almost no loss.
That's actually not very useful at all though. It's about as useful as SAM's slashing debuff (it's useless). Neither should have much weight in balancing.

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