Thread: 4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

Originally Posted by Krisom

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They shouldn't. DRG should be beating out BRD and NIN (probably be a bit under MNK and about SMN in levels of dps).
Preach it brother. Not sure why people perceive DRG as being "more useful" than NIN. Now that the BRD+MCH comp is mostly dead due to the Disembowel nerf, DRG shouldn't be as low.

As for the whole uptime nonsense, the primals we currently have contain a lot of rng mechanics that are going to screw up your uptime- get in the gaols, stunned or knockbacked more than once and that's 1% uptime off the window. So comparing in Susano is very hard. Lakshmi is a dummy fight. On top, it also has some rng (the hands but, mostly, if people Vril the confusion or not).
The last fight where no mechanic specifically punished a member was A11S (A12S had that teleport into adds thing, so one melee would get shafted).
Now, you can go "but you didn't have Triple in A11S". I didn't. So the results aren't exactly valid. But, on the other hand, I did have a ton of speed compared to now, and I had a much better rotation (check the leniency numbers on the other page). Take this as a heuristic. Soon we'll have Deltascape Savage to confirm the validity of this approximation, anyway.
There's 7 caster kills in the top 50 fastest clears, and every BLM is ~1.5% shorter on uptime than their melee counterparts. Note that A11S had that stupid sword aoe mechanic that melee had to deal with and casters didn't, so, by all accounts, this should be a "pro-caster fight".
Now, you can tell me that Triple, if absolutely perfectly used, will cover that 1.5%. I'm confident it won't, though it can mitigate it somewhat. At absolute best, if I use my kit perfectly, get very lucky with the procs (this can always happen- the plants can align and I get a proc for every bit of movement I need to do. Happens one in like ten times, and it feels good), I have roughly as much uptime as melee. At absolute worse, I need to either sacrifice dps to keep my cds for movement (this is an issue, especially if it costs me Triple usages over a fight), or I don't and get messed up if rng doesn't look my way funny.

Every job has difficulties to deal with. The corollary isn't "melee is so easy". Like I said, I play Monk. Not much, and not super well, but I have some idea of how a melee plays. The point I was making is that out of all jobs I've tried in this game, none feels as punished by movement as Black Mage. Now you can try to convince me that I'm wrong and that other jobs have it worse in that regard, and that I'm actually rubbish at this job and should be getting more uptime than my melee counterparts. I just can't believe it.
Sure, an uncooperative tank/party will mess you up. But that's true for any role almost (maybe BRD can handle anything other than a tank sprinting to him and cleaving him with a tankbuster).

This kind of thing is important in balancing jobs because if the devs perceive this wrong, then the balancing will always be questionable- kinda like what it's now. If any of that was true, then NIN/MNK/SAM wouldn't be top competitors- you find two (or even three) of these in every comp on the top 50 fastest kills of each primal (I'm not even joking about this, go check). How can you justify these jobs "have it worse" when DRG/SMN/BLM barely appear anywhere? If that was true, this trio would be able to compete. But they can't. Both because they are inherently weaker and/or because mechanics and transitions punish them heavily (both are true).

(MCH goes separately. I don't play MCH, but my impression is that while it's punishing, the issue isn't just the punishment, though perhaps that could use some work. The issue is that their damage is just way too low for the utility they bring. As in "give them 400 dps single target" too low).

... and sorry for losing my cool, rest of the forums. Too passionate about balance, I guess- being forced to change jobs twice over a year a half ingame does that to you -.-

Originally Posted by MomoOG

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Actual encounter for my post. The reason is simple. There has to be an order which means someone has to be last. As I said in my post. Everyone would get buffs. No nerfs. The difference between the dps of each class would go down. However, desireability has to be equal. Here are the features which determine the desireability value in a static for each class:

Mobility: ability to cope with mechanics
Peak DPS: actual encounter dps
Party utility: what they being to the table

Maybe other things.

The sum of those things should be equal for each class making them all equally desireable. If I'm a bard and I do as much damage as a samurai but I additionally have a mp regen and party damage buff. Why bring a samurai. Pointless.

Edit: to answer your question about MCH, they are ranged, no cast bar dps. They can cope with mechanics better than a NIN.

Edit: thought of another factor, how easy it is to play therefore how much rng there is when you're trying to recruit one as well as reward for playing it well and dealing with everything else.

Originally Posted by AxiomPITCH

Of course it's a dps loss. It's just the fact of the matter, they are a powerful job with an easy playstyle with free instant damage through Fleche, Dualcast, and Contre Sixte as well as mobility from Dualcast, Corps, and Displacement. The icing on the cake is that they have the ability to recover when no one else can. I dunno why people use this argument, SMN has a raise and a (useless) heal and look where it is. On pure principle alone, RDM should approximately equal SMN.

I would agree with you if RDM didn't have Dualcast but it does which makes it a highly mobile class with a party dps buff. SMN has devotion but it's 1 person and it's hard to control who gets it.

Edit: and it's easy to play so it's easier to find a "good" red mage.