The Raid community as we know it

[Ferrasper]

I watched all of the pod cast. I really didn't see anything offensive. That is just how his raid static does it. He is not saying every static has to do it that way. For the real life job thing above, you have to be more careful with how you dish out criticisms in jobs and real life. You have to do it with more respect rather then trash talk people. If someone tried to trash talk me in real life like some people do in game, I would lay their ass straight on the ground for the disrespect in their tone and actions. You have to be more respectful when you do it in the real world because you don't know how people will react.

[Avatre]

He is not saying every static has to do it that way.

Problem is...there are people who will see that, and say it's the ONLY way. I know people who watch guide videos with "strategy" they ONLY do that. "Why did the tank go to NW instead of W for Thordan?!" that type of thing where it is SLIGHTLY different than what they saw in a video someone posted on the interwebs, but not the exact same.

Sad but true, the problem are not hardcore raid community itself, but the ppl who hear strategies and playstyles without context or research and then want to impose that as the ONLY way to do things, recent guids on mrhappy channel I have to say are trying to fix this behavior by explaining that these are what they used on their kills but are one of many ways to handle a fight, which means that at least they are acknowledging the problem

Whenever I look at a guide, I only use it as a "Hey, this is a mechanic that's going to happen, be on the lookout and be ready to act". Trial and error are the only other things that I use to figure out where/when to move.

[Remedi]

Problem is...there are people who will see that, and say it's the ONLY way. I know people who watch guide videos with "strategy" they ONLY do that. "Why did the tank go to NW instead of W for Thordan?!" that type of thing where it is SLIGHTLY different than what they saw in a video someone posted on the interwebs, but not the exact same.

Sad but true, the problem are not hardcore raid community itself, but the ppl who hear strategies and playstyles without context or research and then want to impose that as the ONLY way to do things, recent guids on mrhappy channel I have to say are trying to fix this behavior by explaining that these are what they used on their kills but are one of many ways to handle a fight, which means that at least they are acknowledging the problem

[Nixxe]

There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game and actively causing or encouraging people to quit the game so they can raid more "without those casuals causing a wipe"

If a raid group kicks a player for any reason not direct attributed to making the game unbearable, that is griefing. Kicking people because they haven't got melded BiS gear, or certain achievements or minions is just plain griefing and people who do that are the ones who need to grow up. If you don't want to play with the filthy casuals, then never touch the DF without a static party. Life does not give you the perfect team, ever, in the job or school environment, learn to adapt, or make certain you always have your dream team ready. But let me tell you, in reality, you don't get to pick people who get to work with you, and a perfect team comes with time and promotion from within, not by poaching the most experienced.

Hence you can avoid most of the drama inside a MMO video game by being extremely selective about what raiders you play with, and what guilds you join. I'd actually suggest people completely avoid guilds that have any presence outside the single video game they are playing to avoid encroachment on your personal/family life.

What if you think the game is unbearable if you have to play with people who don't have melded gear, certain achievements, or minions? Isn't SE's stance that "playstyle differences" are a valid reason to kick someone? That's so vague and open ended that for all intents and purposes it's basically never griefing to kick someone, unless perhaps you spell out in chat or something that you desire to kick them just to antagonize them.

I watched all of the pod cast. I really didn't see anything offensive. That is just how his raid static does it. He is not saying every static has to do it that way. For the real life job thing above, you have to be more careful with how you dish out criticisms in jobs and real life. You have to do it with more respect rather then trash talk people. If someone tried to trash talk me in real life like some people do in game, I would lay their ass straight on the ground for the disrespect in their tone and actions. You have to be more respectful when you do it in the real world because you don't know how people will react.

Bragging about how you'd physically assault someone for saying mean things to you doesn't exactly make you look any better.

[Eli85]

The problem with the raiding community--and I used to be a part of it--is not the message from some raiders, but how they say it, the words they choose, and the tone they employ. MrHappy's guest is indicative of this problem. The way raiders speak to each other, this would not pass in any workplace and if friends started to talk that way, they'd find themselves friendless rather quickly.

Now are all raiders like that? No, of course not. I used to run my raid teams on the pillars of respect and maturity. However, this is the exception, not the norm, and for a lot of people--including myself, an ex-raider--it is far too stressful to bother with raiding outside of PUGs (where I can freely not have to deal with the immature players in voice and can ignore chat / whispers in-game).

Until the upper raiding community realizes the toxic behaviour they promote, the top end raid community will keep getting smaller and smaller. It's a shame too, because raiding is such a fun activity. It's not fun when raiders treat others so deplorably.

Also, in case anyone brings it up, being aggressive, yelling at people, threatening others, this does not make anyone play better nor will they learn. I'm a teacher by trade. This sort of "methodology" only pushes learners away.

[akaneakki]

.Also, in case anyone brings it up, being aggressive, yelling at people, threatening others, this does not make anyone play better nor will they learn. I'm a teacher by trade. This sort of "methodology" only pushes learners away.

Okay let me generalize then....
Example one: I had a whm in lvl 67 dungeon, healing and dpsing hard and I was still alive. The SCH I had before didn't dps and I never expected it but I died to the trash pull before first bos 5 times just saying. You see this is where I will generalize.... Hes like that because he doesn't need to do try, because many in here say so.... In extreme primals it's fine to wipe a whole group till time almost over, as long it's dead before duty end that's all what matters, I can even quote people in this thread saying this... Then you have the person who comes in a group when everyone have experience but that last giy doesn't need to do it, as long hes having fun, why not ruin it for the rest right? Want me to quote that too?

Honestly I think majority here who raids on this forum isn't even part of the 1% everyone talks about.. I mean the top world raiders who goes for world first. The rest doesn't. In fact since EVERY raider is so toxic, why do people even ask them for help? Yet look at their guides or such things? If people are so much less toxic, why not just follow them and play like they do? Nobody said anything you need to do what raiders do, do your own thing but don't expect to clear when everyone in the group has a lazy mentality in it. Join static with your own mentality, shouldn't that make you happy?

[Kyt]

being aggressive, yelling at people, this does not make anyone play better nor will they learn. I'm a teacher by trade. This sort of "methodology" only pushes learners away.

Teaching kids in a classroom and leading a high-pressure savage raid are two very different things. Xeno himself says that HE even plays better when people call him out when he screws up. That's proof right there that your ideas on teaching are invalid across mediums that aren't classroom-based. The atmosphere that severely harsh raid leaders create is one filled with pressure and anxiety only if you're just not good enough to play at that level. If you are the epitome of perfect in your class, you don't have to worry about being yelled at because you'll never screw up anyway. If you get yelled at constantly cause you're screwing up constantly, then not only are you in the wrong raid group, but you're probably doing content that's too hard for you in the first place.

[Eli85]

Teaching kids in a classroom and leading a high-pressure savage raid are two very different things. Xeno himself says that HE even plays better when people call him out when he screws up. That's proof right there that your ideas on teaching are invalid across mediums that aren't classroom-based. The atmosphere that severely harsh raid leaders create is one filled with pressure and anxiety only if you're just not good enough to play at that level. If you are the epitome of perfect in your class, you don't have to worry about being yelled at because you'll never screw up anyway. If you get yelled at constantly cause you're screwing up constantly, then not only are you in the wrong raid group, but you're probably doing content that's too hard for you in the first place.

Leading raids (I've done it on the highest level, fyi) is very similiar to teaching in classrooms. As the raid leader you need to identify the problem, and communicate the way to overcome it in the most understandable way possible.

Now, how do human beings react to being uncomfortable? They shut the teacher out, ignoring every attempt at communication. Seriously, go and read up on teaching and leadership methodology. Human beings are conditioned to respond more favourably (and learn at a much higher level) when they are comfortable, engage the teacher / leader, and respect the teacher / leader. Name calling, yelling / shouting, broad stroking, these are antithesis to that.

As for the atmosphere? All the years of high level raiding I've done, I have rarely been called out. However, when the raid leader does it to others, and I have to listen to it, it becomes very uncomfortable, very quickly. Now I know (and I did acknowledge it) that there are raid leaders out there that foster a comfortable, positive environment, but these are very hard to find, and one typically has to go through a lot of toxic groups before they get to them. It gets to the point of "it's not worth it." So I can do more than normal raids, but it's not worth it, not to me. Now if the entire raid community was more positive, warm, and welcoming? Different story.

Might be cultural thing but my whole family, relatives and friends shit talk to each other A LOT and we find it pretty funny, hell even my grandmother do this even tho shes well over 80's. Sarcasm and dark humor is strong in here these two goes pretty well together, tho i must admit that this PC crap has killed humor in mainstream because "muh feelings" and that blows.

There is a difference between talking garbage to each other, and being overly aggressive and insulting, thinking that this will suddenly make players play better.

[Synestra]

if friends started to talk that way, they'd find themselves friendless rather quickly.

Might be cultural thing but my whole family, relatives and friends shit talk to each other A LOT and we find it pretty funny, hell even my grandmother do this even tho shes well over 80's. Sarcasm and dark humor is strong in here these two goes pretty well together, tho i must admit that this PC crap has killed humor in mainstream because "muh feelings" and that blows.

[Auteur]

Ferrasper makes a great point and I would add in real life, there are laws such as title 7, EEOC reg, ADA, etc. that deter certain behavior seen in online games. But I digress.

This hardcore raider being interviewed could be viewed with a wary eye since one could question his distribution of time and life choices. But, what this kind of player chooses to do and how they go about is ultimately their choice and not, I would argue, for the rest of us to pass judgment. The hardcore raider can contend it's hypocritical for us to criticize them for criticizing others gameplay yet it be ok for us to pass judgment on their approach to a game as an indictment of their life choices.

The hardcore raider would be correct, so again live and let it be.