Is "Traditional" a cop out?

[Malakhim]

I'm not really sure you understand how this works.

You pretty much just contradicted yourself here. Of course that when you walk into the "appropriate" threads, people will be praising certain parts about FFXIV's gameplay. Those threads are made BY that 6.6% that like combat, FOR that 6.6%. You are not going to find more people that dislike combat than people who like combat, in a topic praising combat; and vice versa.

The polls are pretty much the best, most unbiased, and definitive statement on what's the status of the game; because the polled population has a gigantic sample size and is representative of the ENTIRE USERBASE. There is no better picture than those polls. Certainly not doing fuzzy counting on how many topics you saw about how "combat is awesome".

I haven't been walking into any threads titled "petition for no auto-attack", that's for sure.

There also is a much better tool to use than polls, and that's actually talking to people instead of getting non-descriptive multiple choice or true/false style questions.

[Wolfie]

I haven't been walking into any threads titled "petition for no auto-attack", that's for sure.

There also is a much better tool to use than polls, and that's actually talking to people instead of getting non-descriptive multiple choice or true/false style questions.

That's not a better tool.

I can't believe you're saying that polls with a gigantic sample size and PURPOSELY NON-LOADED questions are more biased than a person going on a forum, reading "appropriate" topics, and mentally tallying up the differences in opinions.

Are you trolling me?

[Malakhim]

That's not a better tool.

I can't believe you're saying that polls with a gigantic sample size and PURPOSELY NON-LOADED questions are more biased than a person going on a forum, reading "appropriate" topics, and mentally tallying up the differences in opinions.

Are you trolling me?

No, statistics will only get you so far and most social scientists will tell you that if you want the best information, you don't wait for the source to come to you, you go to it. Of course actually putting that to practice is expensive and uber time consuming, which is why it isn't done extensively but most agree in an ideal setting, it would be the best method. What better method is there than a forum where people can post ideas?

Also, keep in mind that while a bunch of people answered the polls, that's all that number is: people who responded to the poll. That doesn't include people playing the game and people who aren't, or people posting on this site.

Yoshi did say that the responses were in the "tens of thousands" which can't account for a huge player base since the game sold upwards of 600k copies on release. And assuming that "tens of thousands" is actually indicative of the player base, are you going to say that 25 to 30%(average) of the different regions populations are wrong on what is inherently something subjective?

[napalmninja]

Also, keep in mind that while a bunch of people answered the polls, that's all that number is: people who responded to the poll. That doesn't include people playing the game and people who aren't, or people posting on this site.

What do you mean? If you don't mind me asking. It seems to me that your saying that the people who answered the polls are a separate group of people who don't play or post on the site.

I probably misread it though.

[Malakhim]

What do you mean? If you don't mind me asking. It seems to me that your saying that the people who answered the polls are a separate group of people who don't play or post on the site.

I probably misread it though.

My wording wasn't the best... What I mean was that the people responding to the polls don't account for the entire FFXIV playerbase, I.E. There could be thousands of people who bought the game and never saw the poll, or read the lodestone, or cared enough to answer it or aren't playing currently. There could be people posting here that also never saw/answered the polls either. There could even be people who just posted to screw with the results. Given that SE removed the "players currently in server" feature from the game months ago, chances are we'll never know the actual player base size.

I could very well be wrong and that "tens of thousands" that Yoshi pointed out is indicative of the actual player base(although he never said as much), but being that we have a figure of upwards of 600k sales, I doubt it is.

[napalmninja]

My wording wasn't the best... What I mean was that the people responding to the polls don't account for the entire FFXIV playerbase, and given that SE removed the "players currently in server" feature from the game months ago, chances are we'll never know the actual player base size.

I could very well be wrong and that "tens of thousands" that Yoshi pointed out is indicative of the actual player base(although he never said as much), but being that we have a figure of upwards of 600k sales, I doubt it is.

Oh I gotcha, that makes sense now. One thing I do know is that the current player base is definitely less than 600k.

I'm sure that the polls are just a formal way for SE to prioritize what they should do first and that any changes will be decided by them first and foremost.

Besides even if not every person who purchased the game voted those are still pretty substantial numbers and it's really all they have to go by.

[AlexiaKidd]

My wording wasn't the best... What I mean was that the people responding to the polls don't account for the entire FFXIV playerbase, I.E. There could be thousands of people who bought the game and never saw the poll, or read the lodestone, or cared enough to answer it or aren't playing currently. There could be people posting here that also never saw/answered the polls either. There could even be people who just posted to screw with the results. Given that SE removed the "players currently in server" feature from the game months ago, chances are we'll never know the actual player base size.

I could very well be wrong and that "tens of thousands" that Yoshi pointed out is indicative of the actual player base(although he never said as much), but being that we have a figure of upwards of 600k sales, I doubt it is.

In November before they removed the ability to check the server the number of active player was believed to be around the 30-40k mark I believe and it was in pretty steep decline unfortunately and that is the only reason they removed that feature I believe as people were publishing the decline. I don't think even now it is more than that so 10's of thousands of responses could very well be a pretty large chunk of the current player base.

[Wolfie]

No, statistics will only get you so far and most social scientists will tell you that if you want the best information, you don't wait for the source to come to you, you go to it. Of course actually putting that to practice is expensive and uber time consuming, which is why it isn't done extensively but most agree in an ideal setting, it would be the best method. What better method is there than a forum where people can post ideas?

Also, keep in mind that while a bunch of people answered the polls, that's all that number is: people who responded to the poll. That doesn't include people playing the game and people who aren't, or people posting on this site.

Yoshi did say that the responses were in the "tens of thousands" which can't account for a huge player base since the game sold upwards of 600k copies on release. And assuming that "tens of thousands" is actually indicative of the player base, are you going to say that 25 to 30%(average) of the different regions populations are wrong on what is inherently something subjective?

Except that

1. Forums do not contain the entire population of those interested in FFXIV.
2. Social scientists agree that polls with a random sample and a big sample size are extremely accurate and always viable, especially when polling/getting feedback from the entire target population isn't.
3. The people who responded to the polls are (accurately) representative of and certainly DO contain subsets of those that are interested in FFXIV, meaning current, former, and prospective players. See #2.
4. 600k copies SHIPPED. That does not mean SOLD. Even if it was 600k SOLD, it does not mean CURRENTLY PLAYING. Most recent unofficial estimates place the currently playing population between 20k and 30k. The last unofficial estimate before the search function viewing the entire server was taken out, was 41k. That's definitely in the range of "tens of thousands". Even IF there were 600k CURRENTLY PLAYING, a "tens of thousands" sample size accounts for anywhere between 1.7% and 15% of the ENTIRE POPULATION, which is a gigantic number that social scientists agree is capable of producing extremely accurate numbers.
5. You are pulling this 25-30% number from your butt thinking that it represents people who think the game is fine. It actually represents nothing, because no such poll was made and this number does not exist. Even IF this number was gotten from a direct "do you think this game's gameplay is fine" poll, it would STILL be indicative that the gameplay is not fine.

Please please stop arguing against cold, hard numbers. You're coming up with fantasy numbers and scenarios, and you're making extremely uneducated, unfounded, biased, and direction-less posts.

[Malakhim]

Except that

1. Forums do not contain the entire population of those interested in FFXIV.
2. Social scientists agree that polls with a random sample and a big sample size are extremely accurate and always viable, especially when polling/getting feedback from the entire target population isn't.
3. The people who responded to the polls are (accurately) representative of and certainly DO contain subsets of those that are interested in FFXIV, meaning current, former, and prospective players. See #2.
4. 600k copies SHIPPED. That does not mean SOLD. Even if it was 600k SOLD, it does not mean CURRENTLY PLAYING. Most recent unofficial estimates place the currently playing population between 20k and 30k. The last unofficial estimate before the search function viewing the entire server was taken out, was 41k. That's definitely in the range of "tens of thousands". Even IF there were 600k CURRENTLY PLAYING, a "tens of thousands" sample size accounts for anywhere between 1.7% and 15% of the ENTIRE POPULATION, which is a gigantic number that social scientists agree is capable of producing extremely accurate numbers.
5. You are pulling this 25-30% number from your butt thinking that it represents people who think the game is fine. It actually represents nothing, because no such poll was made and this number does not exist. Even IF this number was gotten from a direct "do you think this game's gameplay is fine" poll, it would STILL be indicative that the gameplay is not fine.

Please please stop arguing against cold, hard numbers. You're coming up with fantasy numbers and scenarios, and you're making extremely uneducated, unfounded, biased, and direction-less posts.

OK. You're still wrong about the original point though. The game has done plenty of things that other games in the series hasn't. Regardless of whether you approve or not can't dismiss that.

[Wolfie]

OK. You're still wrong about the original point though. The game has done plenty of things that other games in the series hasn't. Regardless of whether you approve or not can't dismiss that.

What original point? My original point? The one that says gameplay blows? No, I'm pretty sure I've thoroughly argued for it the entire time.