Is "Traditional" a cop out?

[Rydin]

This is not my opinion so dont flame me....
I'm actually on the fence on this one and cant make up my mind....
But with the game being down it seemed like a good time to discuss it

With the game being so unpolished and downright unfinished..... Yoshi P has made many references to going back to the FF roots... and pulling from previous games, mentioning several previous installments...

But what does that mean to YOU, the gamer, the Final fantasy fan, the new MMO player.. the FFXI vet, the WoW vet... whatever your background is...

I've always felt that SE balanced new and old so well in every game.... Each FF title had familiar elements (chocobos, which we wont talk about here, Cid, Moogles, Recurring MOBs) but the gameplay elements were always drastically different....
And that was good...
VI was cool... we loved Blitz and who didn't fall in love with the auto-crossbow
And as good as VI was (Damn near perfect)
VII was completely different... and WE LOVED it
And VIII was even more of a deviation from the norm
X Didn't even have levels
XII didn't have random battles
final fantasy IV introduced the ATB (Active time battle) system that we all came to know and love
We've seen new weapons (gun blades and sports balls) mixed with old favorites (swords, axes, staffs)
And with all this, maybe even because of this, SE has always been able to mix Medieval with fantasy, retro with futuristic, realism with the unbelievable with such ease that we had no choice but to be drawn in....

With that being said... How do you feel about the "If it aint broke" mentality?
Materia wasn't broken... but it wasn't in VIII?
and we were better gamers for it.... in fact, when they tried to rehash old ideas (Tetramaster in IX) it didn't go over well...
If you're going to remake VII, then remake VII.... if you're going to redo XI, then give that game an overhaul.... or call a new game XI-2...
but should a numbered title be made to look like an older title, just to try and please people?
SE has never had to try and please a pissed off community.... Is that line of thinking going to hurt this game?

What would be wrong with inventing brand new jobs to work as advanced jobs for these classes?

Do all the answers for this game lie in FFXI??? FFVII? FFVI? FFX??? FFXII? you get the point...
discuss.... try not to flame... and expect me to play the devil's advocate (See: devil's advocate but not troll)

[Gicker]

You make some good points, but you didn't hit home on all of them in my opinion.

Mainly, yes, you need to please the masses. The reality is we have two main camps of players that tried FFXIV. We have the wow heads and their cousins, and we have the ffxi players. Both expected certain things but neither really got what they wanted. The wow heads all went back to wow, and we're left with the old ffxi players, who do expect certain elements from ffxi, because they worked there, and that's why they're playing this franchise of online games.

There's more to this than just following the traditional FF path of creating new games. The world of single player rpgs and that of mmorpgs is very different. What you can get away with in a single player game you can't get away with in an mmorpg. What you're suggesting is exactly what SE did, and it very nearly cost them the entire game an irreparable damage to the franchise if the game actually did fail.

The reality is, most people here have played ffxi in the past, and are playing here now in some part based on that fact. While no one really wants to play a graphical upgrade of ffxi I don't believe, I think there many who have certain expectations of ffxiv based on their experiences with ffxi, and certain other expectations based on what they liked from other mmorpgs they played.

Personally, I like the direction the game is headed in, from what I know of it. I like the fact that we seem to have a great deal of say as to where this game goes developmentally as well. And I think that a certain amount of development needs to go to pleasing the masses so to speak, and a certain amount needs to go to maintaining a certain vision and expectation of the game itself as it relates to the FF franchise. I don't think this game can succeed if those two elements aren't heavily considered and in relatively in balance with each other.

That's my 2 cents at least.

[Rydin]

There's more to this than just following the traditional FF path of creating new games. The world of single player rpgs and that of mmorpgs is very different. What you can get away with in a single player game you can't get away with in an mmorpg. What you're suggesting is exactly what SE did, and it very nearly cost them the entire game an irreparable damage to the franchise if the game actually did fail.

True... but was it a fail because it was different.. or did it fail because it was grossly unfinished? How many ideas from early on in the "Tanaka era" would have been better received had the game been finished with little to no lag, or bugs... and a plethora of content? Its like someone giving a presentation in a dirty suit, with wrinkled graphs.... smudged papers and an overall bad smell...
The ideas weren't necessarily bad but no one gave them any consideration because the packaging was so rough

[napalmninja]

True... but was it a fail because it was different.. or did it fail because it was grossly unfinished? How many ideas from early on in the "Tanaka era" would have been better received had the game been finished with little to no lag, or bugs... and a plethora of content? Its like someone giving a presentation in a dirty suit, with wrinkled graphs.... smudged papers and an overall bad smell...
The ideas weren't necessarily bad but no one gave them any consideration because the packaging was so rough

I think the fact it was unfinished really played a big role in its initial failure. Even if they had finished it with a lot of content and bug free, I think it still would have failed.

The problem is the different ideas and methods FFXIV had. Things like the armory system and levequests and others sound great on paper, but they don't look so good when you actually play them.

I think that one major issue that's keeping the game back now, and would keep the game back even if it was finished, is the lack of class uniqueness.

The armory system sounds neat on paper, but it holds back the classes from being different. If any class can use any skill why should I play PUG over LNC or ARC. Eventually it would reach the point where someone figured out an "alpha class" and suddenly everyone is going to be that class mixture.

And that is why Yoshi-P wants to look and past FFs extensively, because each character and job had a good amount of individuality.

[darkstarpoet1]

I think the fact it was unfinished really played a big role in its initial failure. Even if they had finished it with a lot of content and bug free, I think it still would have failed.

The problem is the different ideas and methods FFXIV had. Things like the armory system and levequests and others sound great on paper, but they don't look so good when you actually play them.

I think that one major issue that's keeping the game back now, and would keep the game back even if it was finished, is the lack of class uniqueness.

The armory system sounds neat on paper, but it holds back the classes from being different. If any class can use any skill why should I play PUG over LNC or ARC. Eventually it would reach the point where someone figured out an "alpha class" and suddenly everyone is going to be that class mixture.

And that is why Yoshi-P wants to look and past FFs extensively, because each character and job had a good amount of individuality.

remove the armory system and lose alot of people that got the game for this one specific thing. i know alot of high level people in multiple classes that would leave just by removing this. i got the game to be able to make my character what i want not be restricted by a job i am expected to play and i know alot of people that feel this way.

[napalmninja]

remove the armory system and lose alot of people that got the game for this one specific thing. i know alot of high level people in multiple classes that would leave just by removing this. i got the game to be able to make my character what i want not be restricted by a job i am expected to play and i know alot of people that feel this way.

I don't mean they should remove the system all together they just need to fix it is all. Maybe make the penalties for using another classes skill more severe or make more class specific skills or even bonuses to using your own classes skill.

This way there's some incentive to play as different classes but you still have the capability to mix and match skills if you like.

EDIT: Better skill animations would make classes feel more unique also.

[Rydin]

I think that one major issue that's keeping the game back now, and would keep the game back even if it was finished, is the lack of class uniqueness.

Had they come out and said "Yes, the main classes are beige and bland because we plan to have job specialization from each of them, so the main bland classes become obsolete anyway" would people have still complained?

[napalmninja]

Had they come out and said "Yes, the main classes are beige and bland because we plan to have job specialization from each of them, so the main bland classes become obsolete anyway" would people have still complained?

Probably, people like to find some reason to complain. At least there would have been something to look forward to for those not complaining.

[darkstarpoet1]

Had they come out and said "Yes, the main classes are beige and bland because we plan to have job specialization from each of them, so the main bland classes become obsolete anyway" would people have still complained?

me i got the game because of the ads promoting being able to level up multiple classes and make you own unique character. this is why i do not do the mmo's for the most part is the fact that even though you have the same character you are restricted to being able to only do one set of skills. if i took the time to level multiple classes why should i be restricted from using them? that in itself is the only reason i got into vix.

[darkstarpoet1]

True... but was it a fail because it was different.. or did it fail because it was grossly unfinished? How many ideas from early on in the "Tanaka era" would have been better received had the game been finished with little to no lag, or bugs... and a plethora of content? Its like someone giving a presentation in a dirty suit, with wrinkled graphs.... smudged papers and an overall bad smell...
The ideas weren't necessarily bad but no one gave them any consideration because the packaging was so rough

to me this game was the equal to going out and getting a brand new white suit then taking it outside and throw it in the mud. sure it is brand new, but you feel dirty wearing it because it is not in great condition. yes, you can take the suit home and clean it up and it will be pretty again, but who wants to buy a dirty suit knowing you can "fix it" in the future. i believe most of the complaints is due to the game being released in less than finished condition. for this reason there are alot of people that are upset they left their old finished games to come here so want elements from the implemented.

this game is the same as the suit in the event that they have a huge future, but it is hard to look past all the dirt on it now.