Silly tank melds

[Makeda]

This has to be the only game I've ever played where people not only knowingly make bad decisions, ... choosing only to heal ...

This is the only trinity based MMO I have seen where tanks are expected to out DPS the DPS, and healers are expected to do any DPS at all...

[Velthice]

This is the only trinity based MMO I have seen where tanks are expected to out DPS the DPS, and healers are expected to do any DPS at all...

The thing is though, that\\'s how the game is designed. In other mmos tanks typically can\\'t come anywhere close to touching even terrible dps and healers even less so.

But in this game the dynamic is different. Tanks and healers can put out very respectable numbers, around 60-80% that of a full fledged dps. Barring some incredible rework, and I\\'m not talking about locking str accessories, I mean a complete from the ground up rework of the game and how encounters work, that\\'s always going to be the case, tanks and healers are always going to have very potent damage. To disregard that, or worse, to actively rally against this fact because "that\\'s not how it works in other mmos" is just an incredible degree of stubbornness and well, kinda silly.

Edit: I removed the last paragraph that was here, it was rude. My point is though that ffxiv is not other mmos. The tank and healer role function differently here than what others are traditionally used to.

[dragonseth07]

The thing is though, that\\'s how the game is designed.

This is a point worth reiterating.

I would love nothing more than to stack Tenacity and never leave Shield Oath. I would gladly trade all my DPS for survivability. That's the style of tank I would love to play.

But I don't, because the game isn't built that way.

Whether I like it or not, the current game design favors a different style. If this was a single player game, I would say "screw that" and do my own thing. But, it's not. I have teammates, and they are counting on me to be good at my job.

Those of us talking about optimization don't get our jollies from top parses (not all of us anyway). We realize that, like any team activity, you're expected to perform so that your team can succeed. I wouldn't half-ass any other team game, video or otherwise, unless I was playing purely with friends and we expected to goof off.

Edit: I'm talking about tanking here since that's my main, but the point is meant to be general.

[Makeda]

This is the only trinity based MMO I have seen where tanks are expected to out DPS the DPS, and healers are expected to do any DPS at all...

The thing is though, that\\'s how the game is designed. In other mmos tanks typically can\\'t come anywhere close to touching even terrible dps and healers even less so.

But in this game the dynamic is different.

Edit: I removed the last paragraph that was here, it was rude. My point is though that ffxiv is not other mmos. The tank and healer role function differently here than what others are traditionally used to.

And yet it was in fact YOU that said:

This has to be the only game I've ever played where people not only knowingly make bad decisions, ... choosing only to heal ...

You will note that my reply was in response to your claim there.

Oh and, it will NOT take an incredible rework to make this MMO have a pure trinity. They could do it by simply nerfing tank and healer DPS.

Numbers like this are not a matter of design needs, but design preferences. They are very easily changed.

WoW has in fact had a period where tank's had higher DPS than DPS, and the top healer was a match to any mid-range DPS. For about half of the 'Cata' expansion, they had a stat they called Vengeance that got higher and higher the more aggro you had - and it then boosted your DPS. On any big pull, the tank with aggro alone could do the DPS of the entire rest of the part COMBINED... It kind of became a bit of an issue... because tank swaps got tricky when the other tank lacked all of that absurd threat lead, as soon as a taunt wore off, the first tank would get it back for some of the classes... and the top healer, the 'Discipline Priest' - primarily healed by casting an attack spell, which caused EVERYONE in the group to healed for the amount of DPS that the priest did... and it scaled absurdly well back then...

A few patches later and things were "WoW normal" with tanks at about 80% of DPS (where they are today), and healers either at 0 DPS, or for the Discipline Priest... maybe 50-60%... (the Disc priest has currently been nerfed into near unplayability, at least up until I left in patch 7.2...)

- So WoW went through a more radically swing up and down than this game has ever seen or is seeing now, and people managed to adjust to it. I am not saying the swing WoW did was a good thing, but that the game and it's community survived it.

These issues can be adjusted pretty easily...

A fight takes '100%' to defeat... all the devs need to do is divy up that 100 into different ratios between the roles.

Right now they seem to presume that the balance should be, in a Full Party: 10% for each tank, 10% for each healer, and then 15% for each DPS.
The community on the other hand seems to think it should be 15% for each tank, 15% for each healer, and 10% for each DPS... The amount of slack this community allows DPS to get away with is astounding given how tight the demands are that it puts on the tanks and healers... I could understand it if we were 'extreme mode' about everyone's roles, or if the community was 'lackadaisical' about everyone's roles... but the fact that there is no pressure put on DPS in this community to actually DPS is just... peculiar...

But they could easily make this 5% for each healer, 10% for each tank, and 17.5% for each DPS - and the only thing they would need to do for that is adjust how much damage your abilities do in your 'role stance' and then "weaken" key aspects of the 'out of role' stance.

For example, WoW used to cause tanks in DPS stance to take 10% more damage from all attacks and lose their crit immunity... This actually persisted for about 5-8 years of the game's lifespan and tank players 'learned' how to handle solo content despite it... (there were actually 3 stances for people on a tank 'spec'...)

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

The amount of slack this community allows DPS to get away with is astounding.

It is! I've even started making a game of how low I can let my dps get without anyone telling me anything~ So far I've gotten to spamming Cooldown with Bishop turret and not a comment given! Of course, this comes with the caveat that the healer is DPSing. If they aren't then I play properly.

[Velthice]

Sometimes, depending on how confident I am in my abilities(newer dungeon/long time of not healing), I may choose to just heal as I don't want to risk letting people die due to DPSing when over long. Or because I can't quite focus enough to be able to do both(out of game issues usually).

That's totally cool, I'd never advocate going full throttle with it from the get go. You should be comfortable and confident with the content first.

[KalinOrthos]

Screw it, I'll out myself.

I meld Strength in my right side equips and mostly Tenacity in my left side and weapons. Because Tenacity means I take less damage, which is what I'm going for as a tank. I'm not going to say "HURRDURR YOU TO MELD THIS WAY" because you don't have to play as I do; you may favor higher personal DPS, and that is fine. But I spit on the mentality that I HAVE to have Strength 270 accessories, I HAVE to have Direct Hit melded onto my gear, I HAVE to play the meta.

[Coatl]

Your fun ends where others begins. For content such as dungeons and even to an extent EX primals, you have some leeway and if you want to be a forever shield oath paladin or a fist of wind monk, you can probably get away with it and no one will really mind.

But if we're wiping to enrage and your creative playstyle is a factor leading to that, then something has to give.

[Evumeimei]

Your fun ends where others begins. For content such as dungeons and even to an extent EX primals, you have some leeway and if you want to be a forever shield oath paladin or a fist of wind monk, you can probably get away with it and no one will really mind.

But if we're wiping to enrage and your creative playstyle is a factor leading to that, then something has to give.

Let's be honest, pretty sure tank damage isn't the problem if a party is wiping to enrage. Look to the DPS first before the tanks and healers.

Just to clarify: I'm posting this with regards to tanks because this thread is about tank melds/dps.

[KalinOrthos]

.

So not doing, what, 100 more DPS a second is going to wipe a raid? And that doesn't indicate that there is something else wrong with the raid?