The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

[AxiomPITCH]

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

You see, you're almost exactly right I think. BLM really isn't hard to play on an average level, and it's already in a very, very nice place dps-wise. The thing is, you have to play the job at such a high level just to be able to compare a similarly geared RDM who gets to out all of their damage punishment-free regardless of fight or circumstances.

The same goes for SMN, it's in quite a good place dps-wise as well, as long as you play like a god. Now look at RDM, how do you play RDM like a god? You don't, because it's laughably easy. Just press all of your buttons on cooldown and try not to forget Manafication.

[Galvuu]

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Use the 90%. Those are very skilled players. The top 5% are composed of the absolute best players and padded parses.
Neither should have much weight- you should balance for good, competent players (75%~90%), but it's not realistic to balance a job for that 1% that plays them amazingly well.

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

The issue is primarily with bringing no utility (and thus needing a lot of personal dps to be competitive) and that the hardest-to-execute rotation in a hard-to-execute job isn't the most rewarding.
Either way, both should be getting buffs. People speak as if buffs are necessarily mutually exclusive. 4 jobs need adjustments right now. I've slowly creeping up on posts requesting SMN single target and aoe buffs and giving them stronger utility (give them trick attaaack).

Off-topic, but I'm about to start levelling SMN, so I've been chewing on Eirene's document, and it strikes me that the jobs are actually incredibly similar on a deep level now (which I didn't think to be the case for HW).
Perhaps because I play quite a bit more BLM and perhaps my opinion will change when I get SMN to 70 and raid, but for what I've studied, SMN seems like it'll be more punishing and harder to execute though.
But then again, I need to play both jobs at 70 extensively to have a clear opinion- and the same goes to you, since you haven't struggled with the 4.0 rotation yourself in a mechanically intensive fight

[HoLoFoNo]

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I've been saying this the entire time and people just retort "buh rdm being weekur don't make otherclasses funner"

That isn't the point. The point is whether they nerf rdm or buff the other 2 classes, right now rdms relative position compared to the other dps, let alone other casters is too high for how forgiving it is and how little mechanics actually effect it's output. It should realistically be where DRG currently is or even lower relative to the other classes.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

I've been saying this the entire time and people just retort "buh rdm being weekur don't make otherclasses funner"

That isn't the point. The point is whether they nerf rdm or buff the other 2 classes, right now rdms relative position compared to the other dps, let alone other casters is too high for how forgiving it is and how little mechanics actually effect it's output. It should realistically be where DRG currently is or even lower relative to the other classes.

The fact of the matter is, most people don't want RDM to change, because they know they couldn't perform as well on the other classes.
Which I'd like to point out, is actually fine.

It's completely fine to have easier classes to play. But having easier classes do the most DPS, be the least punishable and have the most utility is simply broken. For many people fun factor is to do with the DPS the class pulls, which is why I disagree with their claim that nerfing RDM will not make the other classes more played. If MCH became the top ranged DPS with more utility than BRD, you bet your ass that more people will play it. Will it be the most played class/ No.

But I digress, that isn't even the point.
If you look at the caster line up, their DPS and their utilities, anyone with an ounce of sense would see that RDM is simply too high up in the chain for what it brings. Sadly, some people don't see it as that.

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

See I disagree with one point there.
The rotation of a BLM is straightforward and easy. I will not disagree with that. But the rotation isn't what makes the BLM difficult to play per se. It's the knowledge and experience of the fights it needs, compared to other classes.
Much like the SCH I would argue.

Learning the SMN rotation can be a pain. But a rotation is just down to muscle memory, a month or so of playing it (weeks for others) and it becomes simply second nature if your adept enough. You can go into a new fight, and just with feeling pull respectable DPS. That doesn't really work with a BLM, where moving once means 3/4 seconds of DPS gone to waste, or buffs gone to waste.

Not that SMN isn't difficult, it is. But an adept player will be able to pick up SMN quicker in a new raid setting than they would a BLM.

[Galvuu]

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(Look at me going completely off-topic)
Hmmm... if you want to play either job perfectly, they both have a very heavy emphasis on cd planning. Like, both jobs will lose chunks of dps over the course of a fight if your cd planning isn't perfect.
I find SMN harder to learn fully than BLM, too, even if BLM tends to have more punitive micro-decision making (where to put what proc, how to change the order of spells to account for mechanics, using 3.X or 4.0 rotation)...
Still learning new SMN tho. It seems to be quite an interesting job! The clunky pet response is very annoying, and it's a shame they gutted the dots (dot upkeep is pretty cool imho), but it still has loads of nooks and crannies to squeeze optimisation into.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

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I don't deny SMN is hard to play, I used to play one myself. It has a lot to it that's for certain.
They both take different skill sets to play, with SMN it's more reactionary and with BLM it's all about thinking 1 minute ahead at all times.
Funny thing is that RDM has none of these problems.

[Ferrasper]

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Let me ask you this then, how do you feel about it visually? Granted, I am still leveling mine up(at 68 atm), but I am extremely bored with it unlike I was with BLM and RDM. Maybe it's because the ramp up time and visuals aren't on par with the other casters, but once I get it to 70. I don't think I will be playing it that much.

If you can't tell already, visuals are big enjoyment factor for me in MMOs which is why I can't play most melee in this game. Too boring visuals.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

I've been saying this the entire time and people just retort "buh rdm being weekur don't make otherclasses funner"

Are you always this condescending? Nothing I said implied RDM should be at the top of the charts. Everything I said made the point that if you nerf RDM it won't fix the problems placing the other classes at their positions in relation to RDM. There's nothing wrong with RDM having high damage that gets balanced out with use of raises or heals. There IS something wrong with the other classes prioritizing damage and not getting the payoff they deserve and so we return to the crux of the issue that you don't seem to be gleaning: Fixing the output of the other classes should take priority over nerfing the output of one but you seem to be asking for both. And before you start being senseless and lacking understanding of what I just typed, just comparing relative output as it is now is illogical since it's obvious there are more underlying issues than just output/performance/whatever word you want to use this time to say that I'm not getting it. Considering you have 0 casters at 70, you don't have an accurate position aside from anecdotal evidence as to how much RDM is affected by mechanics, it's lesser sure, but to say it's 0 is inane.

[Draxxion]

Let me ask you this then, how do you feel about it ...

I am also an x-smn myself and though I can\\'t answer for Galvuu, I can say that outside of Ruin 3, Miasma 3, Deathflare, and Bahamut it isn\\'t that visually amazing. I find RDM more visually appealing because of all the physical movement your character does and the visual effects of the weapon RDM uses. SMN has some interesting graphics models this time for the weapons, but I have always felt the book rather limiting design wise. RDM can have many more sword and vocus designs be comparison.

[HoLoFoNo]

cutman

My problem is the fact people keep making it so personal. It is frustrating when trying to discuss the balance of classes when at the mere implication that their class is good they think that everyone is advocating for nerfs. I already said twice that its not about nerfing RDM, but changing its position relative to other classes, in the hierarchy if you will. And as other have said, performance/output/whatever is the most important part, as it is the largest dictator of whether a class is played or not. If DRG/SMN were where NIN/RDM were now, you'll bet your ass people would be playing that and the complains would be half of what they are now. Yes, these classes do have operational issues that do contribute a bit to the fact that they aren't doing spectacular damage but these are minor; just mere potency fixes could drastically reduce the complaints these classes have.

Note, I do not just want potency fixes however I want above all for these classes to not to suck ass ontop of feeling bad to play. The fact that I don't have a caster doesn't invalidate what I say if pretty much 99% of people say the same thing, which I believe is beyond reasonable doubt. I have also seen the class played and explained. I never said it isn't effected by mechanics at all, in my last post I said how little its affected but no point arguing semantics.