Shirk is amazing. (Ethics)

[Linx0r]

I do see value to this but honestly if people are saying that we get so much more dps out of using it because of other tanks holding back, I believe the savings is seriously minimal (half a combo or one ocd?). I'm playing advocate to this as I just find this silly as tank swaps have been going on since coil and any (sorry....don't mean to be offensive) tank who knows their own salt doesn't need shirk. No way someone voking off the mt should still have agro if the ot has switched to dps stance and still combining properly. Sorry being the advocate here and not trying to undermine anyone but to just show my perspective. I have farmed suz and pretty much all prior top end fight to this point. If half a combo of a tanks not meeting max dps and the raid fails, that's a dps issue not a tank issue

[SpookyGhost]

I do see value to this but honestly if people are saying that we get so much more dps out of using it because of other tanks holding back, I believe the savings is seriously minimal (half a combo or one ocd?).

Confused, what do you mean by "other tanks holding back"? Do you mean when using Shirk one of the tanks has to hold something back? If so, that's not the case, the thing that changes when using Shirk is that neither tank needs to use their enmity combo which (on all three tanks) is a DPS loss. So you only gain from using Shirk, there's no loss.

[Mnemosynia]

Confused, what do you mean by "other tanks holding back"? Do you mean when using Shirk one of the tanks has to hold something back? If so, that's not the case, the thing that changes when using Shirk is that neither tank needs to use their enmity combo which (on all three tanks) is a DPS loss. So you only gain from using Shirk, there's no loss.

He is saying the benefit to running shirk is so minimal if you have two competent tanks its pointless to run it at all i agree aswell, tank swaping has been in ff for eons, and they weren't forgiving tank swaps either they were tank swaps if failed the mt will die leaving the raid and OT in a precarious position, he's not saying shirk is useless he saying its may aswell be if people know what they are doing.

[SpookyGhost]

He is saying the benefit to running shirk is so minimal if you have two competent tanks its pointless to run it at all i agree aswell, tank swaping has been in ff for eons, and they weren't forgiving tank swaps either they were tank swaps if failed the mt will die leaving the raid and OT in a precarious position, he's not saying shirk is useless he saying its may aswell be if people know what they are doing.

Oh man you're right I didn't actually read his full post, he's just wrong. Phew, I thought I was just misunderstanding something.

[FPZ]

Honestly, this thread.

If you're seriously offended by Shirk and using comments along the lines of "only a bad tank who isn't optimal would take shirk" (paraphrase) then you are truly misinformed, uneducated and most likely the bad tank in the situation here. It's not exclusively about the concept of tank-swapping, it's about being able to safely tank swap and open a fight with your damage combo, thus gaining more potency and overall damage at every tank swap over the course of a 10 minute fight by replacing your aggro combo with a higher damage combo, simple.

I welcome anyone bashing Shirk & the tanks that select it to show me their damage logs, kill videos or hard research as to why Shirk is bad and the people choosing it are bad, as opposed to fabricated anecdotes about how tank swapping has historically been fine without Shirk therefore we don't need it, talk about one dimensional huh? Get with the times please.

Shirk Benefits:
- A DPS gain at every tank-swap.
- Ability to open a fight without tank stance when paired with a Ninja's shadewalker.
- Ability to keep heavy aggro generated from high DPS melee at bay.
- An overall DPS gain between both tanks. This alone is a good enough reason.

In before "dps? lol, you're a tank who cares".

[Mnemosynia]

Honestly, this thread.

Shirk Benefits:
- A DPS gain at every tank-swap.
- Ability to open a fight without tank stance when paired with a Ninja's shadewalker.
- Ability to keep heavy aggro generated from high DPS melee at bay.
- An overall DPS gain between both tanks. This alone is a good enough reason.

In before "dps? lol, you're a tank who cares".

2 Of your points are the same.
3 Out of 4 of your points require 1 or both tanks to be bad.
And lastly, no it does not allow you to start the fight without tank stance.

As for the dps gain portion wouldn't taking about cd that reducing damage taken be a better dps gain due to the ability to stay out of tank stance longer?
I have got to say people are going about like we needed this for the past 3 years, tank swap is easy and so far remains to be easy shirk is a wasted slot mainly because of the job that it does can be handled with provoke which your bringing anyways, regardless of circumstance or comp or the fight.

Which allows you to put lets see any other role skill in that slot.
Redundant utility is just that redundant.

[FPZ]

2 Of your points are the same.
3 Out of 4 of your points require 1 or both tanks to be bad.
And lastly, no it does not allow you to start the fight without tank stance.

As for the dps gain portion wouldn't taking about cd that reducing damage taken be a better dps gain due to the ability to stay out of tank stance longer?
I have got to say people are going about like we needed this for the past 3 years, tank swap is easy and so far remains to be easy shirk is a wasted slot mainly because of the job that it does can be handled with provoke which your bringing anyways, regardless of circumstance or comp or the fight.

Which allows you to put lets see any other role skill in that slot.
Redundant utility is just that redundant.

Nitpicking because you can't counter it?
Another immature response with no hard information to back it up, nice job ignoring my post.
Lastly, go research a little more. Non tank stance openers are very well being done. Again, please research before you comment, it really shows your inexperience with the tanking meta when you try to state your opinion so blindly.

Your comment about replacing Shirk with a mitigation role skill portrays to me that you don't really tank at a competitive level, otherwise you'd know we have an ample amount of mitigation to deal with boss damage coming from our other 3 role skill slots and our base cooldowns. Combined with the boss meta damage of slow damage and big hits, this gives us more than enough to deal with the current fights.

I use Shirk and will always advise other tanks to use it. I also will go out on a limb and say I'm a lot better at tanking than you, since, you know, you like to call people "bad" on a whim, prove me wrong and entertain me oh anti shirk master tank \o/.

Since you ignored most of my points and couldn't provide a logical reply, I won't be replying to you any further at the risk of it being pointless, unless you can show me some hard facts and research like a "good" player.

[Mnemosynia]

Nitpicking because you can't counter it?
Another immature response with no hard information to back it up, nice job ignoring my post.

Shirk was not needed, all you needed to do was drop tank stance (if you were in it) have the OT Provoke and do one aggro combo.
Or If you werent in tank stance go into your dps rotation, have OT provoke and use aggro combo he may have needed to enter tank stance he may not depending on his damage.

Any tank that runs shirk is running it because they have no idea how to play a tank in an optimal way it is not a dps gain it's simply a way for a tank to be less mindful. To think that they gave tanks shirk instead of a role skill charge or maybe damage share or something. Nope they give us a tool that tanks were existing fine without.

And if any of you say no we needed it sophia ex was a perfect example of tank doing massive amounts of tank swaps with out shirk the only purpose I see it have is what the OP did which troll baddies and trash talkers for being assholes.



So you to find the skill useful u have to be playing next to an underperforming tank whilst blowing provoke which is extremely important cd if something were to go wrong like the MT dying and you need to pick up aggro before the boss kills other members of the raid.

I copied and pasted my first response since you can't be bothered to read earlier point, which you decided to not reply to that instead you choose the one below instead which i find interesting.

I cleared everything in HW including a12s sophia ex even went back to do a couple of coils sync for mentoring rights.

Also lastly saying i can't counter you post while countering your post and pointing out what quams i have with each of your post is not countering a post I see. I think your a good player but critical thinking and theory crafting certainly isn't your strong point. Let me ask you this.

Do you think with shirk Coils or fights like shiva ex or sophia ex would it be noticably easier for the entire group that includes you. How marginal is that benefit. Would awareness have been better instead for heavy hitters like bahamut and Alexander, or even ultimatum with the add phase for shiva or countless other fight with them would would allow your dps to unload much faster

I'd seriously like an answer to that, and no making redundant points again tyvm.

PS you just spouted alot of nonsense with nothing backing it up btw, saying my post isnt logical without a basis either and assuming i don't know what i'm talking about with out even looking at my lodestone at that as well, also where are your hard facts btw i have 4 years of tank swaps with out shirk behind me from different states of the game with different classes and different players doing it, you have basically your opinion. And i highly doubt your better at tanking then me if you need shirk i can tank swap without my hand being held very easily you can take shirk if you have an issue with that.

[SpookyGhost]

IDo you think with shirk Coils or fights like shiva ex or sophia ex would it be noticably easier for the entire group that includes you. How marginal is that benefit. Would awareness have been better instead for heavy hitters like bahamut and Alexander, or even ultimatum with the add phase for shiva or countless other fight with them would would allow your dps to unload much faster

1.) Awareness is good, but situational. It isn't really useful vs Bahamut or Alexander since those fights have predictable damage and you had enough HP to survive a low mitigation buster + a crit auto with plenty of health to spare (especially vs Alex since everyone was wearing VIT). It's useful in fights that have 100% crit (shiva, T11) and fights that have high crit bits (A8S). In those cases I'd give up Conva for Awareness as I find Shirk + X will give higher returns than Awareness + Conva.

2.) I haven't actually tried using Ultimatum, but to my knowledge it works like Provoke aka +1 aggro over everything. Does it have some crazy huge range that would let you hit every add when they spawn in Shiva? Because that's the only argument I can see for that.

[Hruodig]

2 Of your points are the same.
3 Out of 4 of your points require 1 or both tanks to be bad.
And lastly, no it does not allow you to start the fight without tank stance.

As for the dps gain portion wouldn't taking about cd that reducing damage taken be a better dps gain due to the ability to stay out of tank stance longer?
I have got to say people are going about like we needed this for the past 3 years, tank swap is easy and so far remains to be easy shirk is a wasted slot mainly because of the job that it does can be handled with provoke which your bringing anyways, regardless of circumstance or comp or the fight.

Which allows you to put lets see any other role skill in that slot.
Redundant utility is just that redundant.

So instead of taking shirk, you're taking...what? What is more beneficial to tank dps than being able to tank swap without doing an aggro combo, being able to swap while staying in dps stance? Having to do less aggro combos overall?

Fucking baffling